Engine Chatter
Road Warrior
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,301
Likes: 24
From: Minden LA
OK, I have a 2007 Street Bob, 17,500 miles maintenance has been on time and on the last oil change my mechanic suggested Mobil 1 synthetic, I did this. I now seem to have engine chatter, top end noise if you will. I was told by my mechanic this is normal, is it??? Sounds like valve noise. Anyone have the same noisey problem?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
This might be one of those occasions when I should keep quiet, but I've never been able to fully master that admirable quality.
But, I don't like oil additives. At all. No way, no how.
Unless I was trading something in and put about three cans of motor honey or STP in the crankcase to disguise that suspicious knock coming out of the bottom end.
Not that I would ever do that.
I've seen used car dealers purposely put a hole in an exhaust sytem to hide a knock, too. They'll wait until they get some money on the car, the customer gets the exhaust fixed -- Goes back to Dealer, who says, "Noise? What noise? Didn't have a noise in it when you picked it up."
But, I don't like oil additives. At all. No way, no how.
Unless I was trading something in and put about three cans of motor honey or STP in the crankcase to disguise that suspicious knock coming out of the bottom end.
Not that I would ever do that.
I've seen used car dealers purposely put a hole in an exhaust sytem to hide a knock, too. They'll wait until they get some money on the car, the customer gets the exhaust fixed -- Goes back to Dealer, who says, "Noise? What noise? Didn't have a noise in it when you picked it up."
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
First time I used syn in one of my cars (A long, long time ago) I kinda paniced because the motor sounded almost like a Diesel in the top end. It went away. The next time I used it on the same motor, it was less, the next time, less, the next time -- It was either gone or I ignored it. Don't even pay attention anymore.
Most bikers are like me, we don't have OCD. Besides the letters are arranged wrong, it should be "ODC."
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Lancs, England
I try to keep away from oil discussions in forums, but I'll make an exception here.
Old engine design and new a breed of oil is the basic cause of rattles when you change over to fully synths from minerals. Older designed engines are built to far greater tolerances than modern ones. Synthetic oils tend to be thinner at lower temps, but don't get much thinner as they get hot unlike mineral oils do. Mineral oils therefore have more of a "cushioning" effect which damps any noise on a cold start up in volatile areas of the engine such as the valve train and end bearings. Which is why you hear more mechanical noise in start up with synths that than you do with minerals. The noise will appear evetually with mineral oils as it warms up and thins out to nearer the same level as the synth. The upside of this is that because synths are much thinner when cold they get around the engine much faster on start-up from cold, which is one of the chief advantages of their use given that most wear in any engine occurs under cold start conditions.
Mineral oils are IMO much better for older engines - I had a V.Max a couple of years ago which lost a good percentage of it's tick over oil pressure when I replaced the mineral oil it came with for fully synth. Back to back comparisons after fitting an accurate oil pressure gauge showed tick over pressure to drop (in the hot engine which had been ridden exactly the same route/ / distance in same ambient temps) from around 17psi to under 10psi. The only difference was the change from mineral (Putoline)to synth (Mobil 1) oil - both 40 weight oils (5/40.Mobil - 10/40 Putoline) Granted not a very scientific test but it was enough to convince me there was significant oil pressure drop using fully synth oil in the V,Max motor compared to mineral.
Think of it as using a hose pipe. Put your finger over the end and the more of the aperture you cover, the greater the pressure build up will be. Now equate that to to two engines, one modern design to made to tight tolerances, and one older made to looser tolerances. It stands to reason that the tighter tolerance motor will produce more oil pressure as the fluid is squeezed through narrower (tighter tolerance) bearings etc than the older engine would.
There is a lot of rubbish talked about synthetic oils, There are synthetics and there are synthetics. A true fully synth oil will benefit some engines but there aren't too may true synths around in all honesty - most are merely hydrocracked mineral oils combined with esters. Loopholes in the law allow the makers to cal them fully synth. Off the top of my head Two true synthetics are Amsoil (not sure which) and Motul (300V)
It's a vast subject which we can - and do - bang on about for ever, but if you're seriously interested in oil and want some questions answered try this website - it explains the synth myth far better than I ever could - Page 1:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html
& page 2:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html
Sorry for the long post - got carried away
Derv
Old engine design and new a breed of oil is the basic cause of rattles when you change over to fully synths from minerals. Older designed engines are built to far greater tolerances than modern ones. Synthetic oils tend to be thinner at lower temps, but don't get much thinner as they get hot unlike mineral oils do. Mineral oils therefore have more of a "cushioning" effect which damps any noise on a cold start up in volatile areas of the engine such as the valve train and end bearings. Which is why you hear more mechanical noise in start up with synths that than you do with minerals. The noise will appear evetually with mineral oils as it warms up and thins out to nearer the same level as the synth. The upside of this is that because synths are much thinner when cold they get around the engine much faster on start-up from cold, which is one of the chief advantages of their use given that most wear in any engine occurs under cold start conditions.
Mineral oils are IMO much better for older engines - I had a V.Max a couple of years ago which lost a good percentage of it's tick over oil pressure when I replaced the mineral oil it came with for fully synth. Back to back comparisons after fitting an accurate oil pressure gauge showed tick over pressure to drop (in the hot engine which had been ridden exactly the same route/ / distance in same ambient temps) from around 17psi to under 10psi. The only difference was the change from mineral (Putoline)to synth (Mobil 1) oil - both 40 weight oils (5/40.Mobil - 10/40 Putoline) Granted not a very scientific test but it was enough to convince me there was significant oil pressure drop using fully synth oil in the V,Max motor compared to mineral.
Think of it as using a hose pipe. Put your finger over the end and the more of the aperture you cover, the greater the pressure build up will be. Now equate that to to two engines, one modern design to made to tight tolerances, and one older made to looser tolerances. It stands to reason that the tighter tolerance motor will produce more oil pressure as the fluid is squeezed through narrower (tighter tolerance) bearings etc than the older engine would.
There is a lot of rubbish talked about synthetic oils, There are synthetics and there are synthetics. A true fully synth oil will benefit some engines but there aren't too may true synths around in all honesty - most are merely hydrocracked mineral oils combined with esters. Loopholes in the law allow the makers to cal them fully synth. Off the top of my head Two true synthetics are Amsoil (not sure which) and Motul (300V)
It's a vast subject which we can - and do - bang on about for ever, but if you're seriously interested in oil and want some questions answered try this website - it explains the synth myth far better than I ever could - Page 1:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html
& page 2:
http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html
Sorry for the long post - got carried away
Derv
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
There's also an age old argument over oil pressure v. oil volume. Oil pressure without oil volume is worthless.
One of the reasons cars and motorcycles are going to lighter weight oils -- Oil volume. In fact, Mercedes will tell you flat out -- "We WILL void your waranty if you use anything other than 0W-40 Mobil 1 in your engine."
M1 is factory fill in some of the most expensive and the most powerful vehicles on Earth. Including new S&S motors.
Here's one --
Twin turbocharged and intercooled 8 litre V10 all aluminium engine.
1012 bhp at 5600 rpm.
1036 lb.ft of torque at 4500 rpm.
One of the reasons cars and motorcycles are going to lighter weight oils -- Oil volume. In fact, Mercedes will tell you flat out -- "We WILL void your waranty if you use anything other than 0W-40 Mobil 1 in your engine."
M1 is factory fill in some of the most expensive and the most powerful vehicles on Earth. Including new S&S motors.
Here's one --
Twin turbocharged and intercooled 8 litre V10 all aluminium engine.
1012 bhp at 5600 rpm.
1036 lb.ft of torque at 4500 rpm.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Lancs, England
Grendel, I see the point of the Volume v Pressure argument although I'm not really that well read on on the Volume side of the argument. I'm guessing here but I'm assuming the higher / faster the volume flow of oils the better the cooling? I'm foggy on any other advantages such a system offers but there must be something if people like Merc are employing it. You may have to educate me here 
As an old guy who's been around engines most of his life - the old methods linger long in the brain (what brain I hear you ask!
) Thus, My thoughts have always been: it's the pressure which keeps the metal surfaces from actually making contact with each other - which still puts it at the top of my list of the most important features of my oil. But then I'm an old luddite so what do I know? 
Derv
As an old guy who's been around engines most of his life - the old methods linger long in the brain (what brain I hear you ask!
) Thus, My thoughts have always been: it's the pressure which keeps the metal surfaces from actually making contact with each other - which still puts it at the top of my list of the most important features of my oil. But then I'm an old luddite so what do I know? Derv
Tourer
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 349
Likes: 1
From: Pittsburgh
I'm not very well schooled as far as oil goes, but I'm doing my homework to make an educated decision when 10k comes around.
I've been looking into switching to AMSOIL next change mostly because of the good things I've heard about lowering engine temps and putting an end to the noises you guys are talking about.
Oil is a tricky thing. I guess I have alot more homework to do.
I've been looking into switching to AMSOIL next change mostly because of the good things I've heard about lowering engine temps and putting an end to the noises you guys are talking about.
Oil is a tricky thing. I guess I have alot more homework to do.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
Grendel, I see the point of the Volume v Pressure argument although I'm not really that well read on on the Volume side of the argument. I'm guessing here but I'm assuming the higher / faster the volume flow of oils the better the cooling? I'm foggy on any other advantages such a system offers but there must be something if people like Merc are employing it. You may have to educate me here
As an old guy who's been around engines most of his life - the old methods linger long in the brain (what brain I hear you ask!) Thus, My thoughts have always been: it's the pressure which keeps the metal surfaces from actually making contact with each other - which still puts it at the top of my list of the most important features of my oil. But then I'm an old luddite so what do I know?
Derv
As an old guy who's been around engines most of his life - the old methods linger long in the brain (what brain I hear you ask!
) Thus, My thoughts have always been: it's the pressure which keeps the metal surfaces from actually making contact with each other - which still puts it at the top of my list of the most important features of my oil. But then I'm an old luddite so what do I know? Derv
Be that as it may, I'm old enough to remember the raging argument between the generations when detergent oil was first introduced for use in passenger cars.
The 'older engines' thing is also a little disingenuous. For many, many years (decades maybe) most engines have been made to extremely close tolerances. So if you've got a thirty-five-year-old MC that's never been re-built, maybe you should stick with old dino oil. But if it's less than 15-20 years old? And is in good condition?
The truth is, even the dino oils of today, especially the HD oils, are pretty darned good. Where you can run into trouble is if you've got a motor so old that it's using flat-tappet cams. Or is a diesel. Gotta be careful because the EPA (doncha just love those morons?) forced most of the Zinc (ZDDP) out of dino oils a few years ago.
Syn oils just don't break down like dino oils. The heat doesn't bother them as much. They are no more slippery than dino oil, either. And they don't require viscosity modifiers like dino oil does-- Which are subject to breaking down when high heat is applied to them.
So, in a dino oil, you can start out with a 20W-50 oil, but when high heat (from a Harley? Nebbe hatchee) is applied, the viscosity modifiers can break down into -- Nothingness. So whatever base stock you started with, when the viscosity modifiers have broken down, is what you're left with.
Sorry to be so boring.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Lancs, England
Been a long time since I last heard the term 'luddite' used.
Be that as it may, I'm old enough to remember the raging argument between the generations when detergent oil was first introduced for use in passenger cars.
The 'older engines' thing is also a little disingenuous. For many, many years (decades maybe) most engines have been made to extremely close tolerances. So if you've got a thirty-five-year-old MC that's never been re-built, maybe you should stick with old dino oil. But if it's less than 15-20 years old? And is in good condition?
The truth is, even the dino oils of today, especially the HD oils, are pretty darned good. Where you can run into trouble is if you've got a motor so old that it's using flat-tappet cams. Or is a diesel. Gotta be careful because the EPA (doncha just love those morons?) forced most of the Zinc (ZDDP) out of dino oils a few years ago.
Syn oils just don't break down like dino oils. The heat doesn't bother them as much. They are no more slippery than dino oil, either. And they don't require viscosity modifiers like dino oil does-- Which are subject to breaking down when high heat is applied to them.
So, in a dino oil, you can start out with a 20W-50 oil, but when high heat (from a Harley? Nebbe hatchee) is applied, the viscosity modifiers can break down into -- Nothingness. So whatever base stock you started with, when the viscosity modifiers have broken down, is what you're left with.
Sorry to be so boring.
Be that as it may, I'm old enough to remember the raging argument between the generations when detergent oil was first introduced for use in passenger cars.
The 'older engines' thing is also a little disingenuous. For many, many years (decades maybe) most engines have been made to extremely close tolerances. So if you've got a thirty-five-year-old MC that's never been re-built, maybe you should stick with old dino oil. But if it's less than 15-20 years old? And is in good condition?
The truth is, even the dino oils of today, especially the HD oils, are pretty darned good. Where you can run into trouble is if you've got a motor so old that it's using flat-tappet cams. Or is a diesel. Gotta be careful because the EPA (doncha just love those morons?) forced most of the Zinc (ZDDP) out of dino oils a few years ago.
Syn oils just don't break down like dino oils. The heat doesn't bother them as much. They are no more slippery than dino oil, either. And they don't require viscosity modifiers like dino oil does-- Which are subject to breaking down when high heat is applied to them.
So, in a dino oil, you can start out with a 20W-50 oil, but when high heat (from a Harley? Nebbe hatchee) is applied, the viscosity modifiers can break down into -- Nothingness. So whatever base stock you started with, when the viscosity modifiers have broken down, is what you're left with.
Sorry to be so boring.
I never did find a definitive answer apart from my tolerance theory, but articles like the one I posted the link to in my earlier post did help explode a few myths for me regarding the "all things to all men" advertisting stance of the big oil companies. It's seems to be fact that even real fully synth oils will break down and shift viscosity grades (degrade) with use, and sheer strength will also suffer. Albeit at higher temps and higher mileages than Dino oils but they still break down, contrary to common belief amongst the buying public who will mostly blindly accept what the ad men tell them.
I still use Dino oils, but like i say I'm a luddite - there, you've heard it twice in one day now!
I just change it more often than I would a synth. And there's the rub, no matter what oil you use there's no substitute for regular changes. I once took on a job, rebuilding an MGB engine. The car had done just short of 130,000 miles and the guy who owned it was having it restored to it's former glory. I stripped the engine out - only to find everything was perfect - crank journals, cam, bores - all well within tolerence. If it wasn't for the fact that nothing had been ground or bored out I'd have sworn I was looking at an engine that had been rebuilt at sometime. But no, speaking to the owner I was told he'd owned the car from new and it had never been apart before. What he had done however, because he got oll free from work (good old Castrol GTX) he had changed it religiously every 3000 miles or before. First hand experience of the value of regular oil changes. Oil, amongst the biking & car nut fraternity is a very emotiove issue - one reason I tend not to get involved in forum discussions about it. I've seen some real doozie flaming rows break out on forums on the subject, which of course is ridiculous, it's each to their own at the end of the day. Bottom line is - that there are no really bad oils these days, modern technology looks after us (even with the zinc taken out!) - when was the last time anyone saw an engine disintigrate in normal use, purely because somebody used a particular make of oil over another?
It is nice though when someone comes along with something more to offer to the debate - so thank you for that.
Derv
Last edited by Derv; May 21, 2010 at 03:39 PM.