Engine Chatter
Big Kahuna HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,881
Likes: 34
From: USA
OK, I have a 2007 Street Bob, 17,500 miles maintenance has been on time and on the last oil change my mechanic suggested Mobil 1 synthetic, I did this. I now seem to have engine chatter, top end noise if you will. I was told by my mechanic this is normal, is it??? Sounds like valve noise. Anyone have the same noisey problem?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
F1 cars have been using synthetic for many, many years. Many years.
Some time ago, I was talking to a NASCAR wrench and he told me that back around the year 2000 (??) Winston Cup cars (as they were known then) were having a serious problem with engines blowing up right and left. They would tear the cars down and discover that the camshafts were disintegrating. But they couldn't figure out why. They'd been using the same dino oils they'd been using for years and years.
As many of us know, NASCAR is somewhat stuck in the Stone Age. Pushrod motors AND Flat Tappet cams. Turns out that the EPA had forced the ZDDP out of dino oils and the giant Petro-Chemical Companies (Shell, Chevron, Exxon/Mobil, etc) hadn't bothered to tell anybody. Even their own sponsored race car teams.
Hard to believe, but not really. Big, huge Oil Companies are pretty tight-lipped about what they put into or don't put into their oil and gas.
Now days, pretty much every race team of any kind in existence runs synthetic oil. And with far fewer problems than even with the old ZDDP-laden dino oils.
F1 cars will turn over 19,000 RPM (maybe closer to 20,000 but those guys are more secretive than MI-6) and Sprint Cup cars will turn close to 10,000 RPM. With Flat Tappet cams and Pushrods!?!!!?!!
Drain the oil out of an F1 car and put Harley oil in it. Then run it up to 18 or 19,000 RPM. You'll be picking up pieces of that motor scattered between your house and Glasgow.
A Morris with 130k on it?
Some time ago, I was talking to a NASCAR wrench and he told me that back around the year 2000 (??) Winston Cup cars (as they were known then) were having a serious problem with engines blowing up right and left. They would tear the cars down and discover that the camshafts were disintegrating. But they couldn't figure out why. They'd been using the same dino oils they'd been using for years and years.
As many of us know, NASCAR is somewhat stuck in the Stone Age. Pushrod motors AND Flat Tappet cams. Turns out that the EPA had forced the ZDDP out of dino oils and the giant Petro-Chemical Companies (Shell, Chevron, Exxon/Mobil, etc) hadn't bothered to tell anybody. Even their own sponsored race car teams.
Hard to believe, but not really. Big, huge Oil Companies are pretty tight-lipped about what they put into or don't put into their oil and gas.
Now days, pretty much every race team of any kind in existence runs synthetic oil. And with far fewer problems than even with the old ZDDP-laden dino oils.
F1 cars will turn over 19,000 RPM (maybe closer to 20,000 but those guys are more secretive than MI-6) and Sprint Cup cars will turn close to 10,000 RPM. With Flat Tappet cams and Pushrods!?!!!?!!
Drain the oil out of an F1 car and put Harley oil in it. Then run it up to 18 or 19,000 RPM. You'll be picking up pieces of that motor scattered between your house and Glasgow.
A Morris with 130k on it?
Last edited by Grendel4; May 21, 2010 at 04:05 PM.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Lancs, England
[quote=Grendel4;6747534 Drain the oil out of an F1 car and put Harley oil in it. Then run it up to 18 or 19,000 RPM. You'll be picking up pieces of that motor scattered between your house and Glasgow.
A Morris with 130k on it? [/quote]
It's all horses for courses, my point is that so long as you use the maker's recommended spec oils it'll all be fine, just choose a good make. I'd love to see an F1 car with Harley oil in it - it may just surprise us all! Would it only run on two cylinders do you think?
Yes 130k miles - and don't ever let an MG owner hear you call his car a Morris - you'll get lynched in England for that - we still have the Tower here ya know, and a Queen who can order your beheading! In fact I'll drop her a note
The guy did drive like Miss Daisy though Grendel it has to be said - but 130k is still a good mileage no matter
Derv
A Morris with 130k on it? [/quote]
It's all horses for courses, my point is that so long as you use the maker's recommended spec oils it'll all be fine, just choose a good make. I'd love to see an F1 car with Harley oil in it - it may just surprise us all! Would it only run on two cylinders do you think?
Yes 130k miles - and don't ever let an MG owner hear you call his car a Morris - you'll get lynched in England for that - we still have the Tower here ya know, and a Queen who can order your beheading! In fact I'll drop her a note
The guy did drive like Miss Daisy though Grendel it has to be said - but 130k is still a good mileage no matter
Derv
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
It's all horses for courses, my point is that so long as you use the maker's recommended spec oils it'll all be fine, just choose a good make. I'd love to see an F1 car with Harley oil in it - it may just surprise us all! Would it only run on two cylinders do you think?
Yes 130k miles - and don't ever let an MG owner hear you call his car a Morris - you'll get lynched in England for that - we still have the Tower here ya know, and a Queen who can order your beheading! In fact I'll drop her a note
The guy did drive like Miss Daisy though Grendel it has to be said - but 130k is still a good mileage no matter
Derv
Yes 130k miles - and don't ever let an MG owner hear you call his car a Morris - you'll get lynched in England for that - we still have the Tower here ya know, and a Queen who can order your beheading! In fact I'll drop her a note
The guy did drive like Miss Daisy though Grendel it has to be said - but 130k is still a good mileage no matter
Derv
I tried to put a 'smiley' icon on at the end, but I used the 'quick reply' feature and I don't think it will let you do that.
And if you're on speaking terms with the Queen, would you kindly ask her to please take Canada back?
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Lancs, England
Yes, I'll ask her when I go for tea on Tuesday, her and Phil often invite us over to play with the Corgis.
I'll be in Canada during July so I'll make up a list of reasons that she should take it back under Engish rule while I'm there. Do you think we should try for the French bit as well?
Derv
I'll be in Canada during July so I'll make up a list of reasons that she should take it back under Engish rule while I'm there. Do you think we should try for the French bit as well?
Derv
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 7,562
Likes: 11
From: Palm Harbor fl.
Oh yeah, while this topic got off hand, the next oil change the extra noise will go away as grendel said, I have changed synth 3 times now, and as I stated before, My valvetrain is very quiet.... not to mention I have gear drive cams as well.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 4
From: Augusta, GA
We (the independent shop I work in) recently got two bikes, back to back, needing cam changes.
The first was an '03 Fatboy and the other was an '04 Classic. The fatboy was a "B" model engine that had run synthetic H-D since the first oil change and the Classic was an "A" engine that had run dino since new.
The Fatboy had 41K on the odometer and the Classic had 49K. Cam tensioner wear on both was equal and wasted.
Personally, I run dino oil because it keeps the valvetrain quieter but the funny thing to me is - I can tell when the bike is 1/3 qt low because I start hearing the valvetrain......
Now why I could tell the bike was low on oil in a dry sump system has to have something to do with two things (IMHO) 1. The dynas have such a small oil capacity and, 2. the ability to dissipate heat is greatly reduced due to the small amount of circulating oil.
Thoughts?
The first was an '03 Fatboy and the other was an '04 Classic. The fatboy was a "B" model engine that had run synthetic H-D since the first oil change and the Classic was an "A" engine that had run dino since new.
The Fatboy had 41K on the odometer and the Classic had 49K. Cam tensioner wear on both was equal and wasted.
Personally, I run dino oil because it keeps the valvetrain quieter but the funny thing to me is - I can tell when the bike is 1/3 qt low because I start hearing the valvetrain......
Now why I could tell the bike was low on oil in a dry sump system has to have something to do with two things (IMHO) 1. The dynas have such a small oil capacity and, 2. the ability to dissipate heat is greatly reduced due to the small amount of circulating oil.
Thoughts?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
We (the independent shop I work in) recently got two bikes, back to back, needing cam changes.
The first was an '03 Fatboy and the other was an '04 Classic. The fatboy was a "B" model engine that had run synthetic H-D since the first oil change and the Classic was an "A" engine that had run dino since new.
The Fatboy had 41K on the odometer and the Classic had 49K. Cam tensioner wear on both was equal and wasted.
Personally, I run dino oil because it keeps the valvetrain quieter but the funny thing to me is - I can tell when the bike is 1/3 qt low because I start hearing the valvetrain......
Now why I could tell the bike was low on oil in a dry sump system has to have something to do with two things (IMHO) 1. The dynas have such a small oil capacity and, 2. the ability to dissipate heat is greatly reduced due to the small amount of circulating oil.
Thoughts?
The first was an '03 Fatboy and the other was an '04 Classic. The fatboy was a "B" model engine that had run synthetic H-D since the first oil change and the Classic was an "A" engine that had run dino since new.
The Fatboy had 41K on the odometer and the Classic had 49K. Cam tensioner wear on both was equal and wasted.
Personally, I run dino oil because it keeps the valvetrain quieter but the funny thing to me is - I can tell when the bike is 1/3 qt low because I start hearing the valvetrain......
Now why I could tell the bike was low on oil in a dry sump system has to have something to do with two things (IMHO) 1. The dynas have such a small oil capacity and, 2. the ability to dissipate heat is greatly reduced due to the small amount of circulating oil.
Thoughts?
Anyway, yes. Oil capacity is very important in my opinion. It cools better, doesn't pollute nearly as fast and is just generally a better idea.
Just to round things off, let's call the new Twin Cam 1,500cc. We all know better, but it makes the math easier. That's 1-1/2 Liters of displacement. So let's say that Ford has it right and is using 7 quarts in their 5.4L motor. That's about 1-1/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
Let's also say the new Dynas hold about 2-1/2 quarts of oil. That's about 1-2/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
I'm okay with Harley's oil capacity.
If YOU think my math is fuzzy? You should be at my end. It's probably wrong so feel free to correct it.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,352
Likes: 4
From: Augusta, GA
My 5.4L Ford takes 7-1/2 quarts of oil to fill up. My wife's little 4.6L takes 6-1/2. Many Ford Diesels in the F Series Pickups take 15 quarts. I think the Duramax takes 10 quarts. That's Chevy for you. Brilliant engineering up to a point. Great engine -- Quiet, powerful, dependable, reliable. Good motor. I just don't trust Generic Motors anymore. Haven't for a long time now. General Maintenance has always been stingy with oil capacity. I had a 3.8L Buick once that held 4 quarts. For a little while, anyway. It usually ended up blowing it out in about 500 miles. Not the 3800, the 3.8L. Pile of junk. Good looking car, but a pile of junk.
Anyway, yes. Oil capacity is very important in my opinion. It cools better, doesn't pollute nearly as fast and is just generally a better idea.
Just to round things off, let's call the new Twin Cam 1,500cc. We all know better, but it makes the math easier. That's 1-1/2 Liters of displacement. So let's say that Ford has it right and is using 7 quarts in their 5.4L motor. That's about 1-1/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
Let's also say the new Dynas hold about 2-1/2 quarts of oil. That's about 1-2/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
I'm okay with Harley's oil capacity.
If YOU think my math is fuzzy? You should be at my end. It's probably wrong so feel free to correct it.
Anyway, yes. Oil capacity is very important in my opinion. It cools better, doesn't pollute nearly as fast and is just generally a better idea.
Just to round things off, let's call the new Twin Cam 1,500cc. We all know better, but it makes the math easier. That's 1-1/2 Liters of displacement. So let's say that Ford has it right and is using 7 quarts in their 5.4L motor. That's about 1-1/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
Let's also say the new Dynas hold about 2-1/2 quarts of oil. That's about 1-2/3 quarts per liter of displacement.
I'm okay with Harley's oil capacity.
If YOU think my math is fuzzy? You should be at my end. It's probably wrong so feel free to correct it.
I do think; however, the fact the H-D is air-cooled and the Ford diesel or gas engine is water-cooled makes a big difference. Diesel engines have a water jacket around the oil filters to speed cooling the oil as well as an oil cooler on the heavy duty versions.