Voltage Reg - I'm told can't be tested
#1
05-16-2016, 01:21 PM
Voltage Reg - I'm told can't be tested
Hello Steve here, I've had problems chasing down an intermitent charging problem, with both light coming on (engine/battery). When that happens the voltage reading with lights on is 11.5 then jumping with light off to 14v. This all happening on a 2006 FLHX Street Glide, so have tested Stator and all is good while running at 42v at 2000rpm and 0 ohms not running. So the question from the dealers is you can't test the Voltage regulator other than putting it on the bike which I find hard to believe, again is there a sure fired way to test the regulator using a multimeter off the bike? Cables tight and all good, battery new.
Regards,
Steve
Regards,
Steve
#3
05-16-2016, 06:42 PM
Well after close inspection I found one of the connector to the VR had broken off internally?? So back to the HD to purchase which they call a splice connector - DC Lead Assembly #74115-06 and after making sure I spliced in correctly +/- she is showing no change as far as Voltage to the battery. So back to HD to purchase as you guessed it a new VR and yes they are $239.95 but she is now showing on the volt gauge 14 and 13.8 at the battery due to starting without a charge, back on the trickle charge.
#4
05-16-2016, 06:51 PM
Seasoned HDF Member
If it's correct to this, it's probably OK. However, they are correct that to really test it requires special factory equipment that would not justify doing it. That 0 ohms not running quote is incorrect or you misunderstood what he quoted....
Rev. 111015
Some electrical 101 and a little more..
Remember, the best made brand new battery that has been on a maintenance charger for 3 days that has a loose or bad connection is no better then a boat anchor with a loose rope. The connection can get loose after one ride if the battery is not anchored and the wires are short and get tugged in a direction that can unscrew the bolts.
After a good 24+ hour maintenance low amperage charge, with the charge light in the solid green and the battery has set about 24 hours off charge, voltage should be about 12.8 volts.
12.8 = full charged
12.6 = 75% charged
12.3 = 50% charged (Lot of new modern cars with system protection will not even click at this point but will have good headlight beams showing)
12.0 =25% charged
Always check both the terminals at the battery lead and also at the terminal on the wire. That helps to verify connection. With a DC volt meter (one that has a feature to lock high and low reading is best) hooked across the battery terminals and reading 12.8 or so, crank motor and while its cranking it should not drop below about 9.6 volts and as soon as it starts and throttled up to 2000 rpm, voltage should read around 14.8 volts. The 2000 rpm is the bench mark standard. Ignore idle output. Ignore output above 2000rpm unless it exceeds 14.9 volts. That is a sure indication that regulator is bad.
The crank check shows a rough check of the reserve amperage capacity of the battery while cranking with a 150-200 amp load on it. The 14.8 shows a good alternator and if you leave it on a while as the regulatory will drop the voltage a little showing itself working. However, with the lights and stuff always on, it will never drop back much. If you have a lot of options, most modern bikes will not show 14.8 charging volts at idle but stock newer bikes will be close. Older bikes with lower amperage output not so much. However, 2000 rpm is the bench mark for the standard 14.8 volts.
If you think battery is good and something is draining it sitting, now would be a good time to check for drain problems. Go to Harbor Freight and get you a AC/DC meter for under $25 or so. http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-d...ter-37772.html Make sure it has DC amps draw, DC voltage, resistance and AC voltage. Key off. Remove the negative cable off the battery. Set meter on DC amps. Hook the meter lead to cable and the other to battery. How many milliamps (mA) is it drawing? It should be no more then 6 mA which is the ECM (1), speedometer (1), tac,TSSM (1),HFSM (1) and voltage regulator (1)
When a battery wears out, a good charge will show fairly good voltage, but the battery can still have very low amperage capacity which will show in the crude crank test above, but it really should be checked after a good charge by removing it from bike and getting a free check at a place like AutoZone that has a fancy load meter check that gives you a print out of the battery health. Battery MUST BE CHARGED to check it. Be sure they set their meter to correct cold cranking amperage stated on the battery. Never charge the AGM absorbed glass mat battery with a regular car battery charger unless it is a newer one that says safe with this type of battery. Also, by taking battery out you now know you have good connections. Vibration tends to loosen the connections or a little corrosion will prevent charging or cause starting problems. Be forwarned, these checks quite often are incorrect due to the low amperage of these small batteries and junk checking equipment. If bike is charging , no load on battery when key is off and you are still having problems…REPLACE THE BATTERY. If battery is more then 3-4 years old.. REPLACE THE BATTERY.
Using the maintenance charger can get more years from a battery but be careful here. You do not want the last start 5 miles from home. If it still grunts when you first hit starter or kicks back with a bang, replace it. After a few years, charge and pull battery and have it checked for cold cranking amperage ever spring. Even then, if it grunts most ever start, I would replace it. Most battery checkers at AutoZone and places like that do not do really well on the low amperage setting on small batteries. Not sure why but they tend to say they are OK when they are weak. If they have one that fits your bike, Wal-Mart's AGM absorbed glass mat battery is just as good as any for one third to half the money of a Harley Battery. Do not put an old fashion one with vent tubes on a modern TC Harley. Do not jump, push start or run bike with a half dead battery except in a real emergency. If a bike battery is down and you jump it, throwing all that amps to it from a big car battery especially one that is running can wreck a bike regulator or charging system. Charging a worn out battery can kill alternator stator or the voltage regulator or both. Probably ending in a big dollar repair in parts alone.
It is also a good idea to always check your battery at 2000 RPM with your meter set to AC. If by chance, the regulator goes bad, sometimes it will let AC come thru. That is a sure sign of a bad regulator. Older 2 wire stators have a single phase output while the newer stators with 3 wires have a 3 phase output. The 3 phase system provides a more consistent and higher current output to the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator takes the AC from the alternator, rectifies it to DC and limits the voltage level to the battery depending on the voltage reading it gets back from the battery.
Also remember, when starting a Harley, hit the starter and hold it in till it is firing on both cylinders and running before letting up. If you let up before it’s running, quiet often, it actually take an FI motor longer to start. There is a fraction of a second more for a long stroke Harley then a multi-cylinder car for it to get going. If you do not do this, it will kick back with a bang, sneeze thru the intake or crank a lot longer the second time or shame on you the third time. Also, if you have a habit of doing this, the starter solenoid switch contact will only have half the life it could. You cannot hurt the starter. The starter gear has a sprag clutch. There are drive pins in it that as the gas motor catches and run, it outruns the starter motor drive and disengages it from the electric motor. If you hold it in a little too long and listen carefully, you will hear the sprag clutch run up the ramps and slip. Makes a sizzle hum. This will show you your starter sprag clutch is OK.
New battery could still be bad. Probably either that or your connects are not really tight. Are you depending on them total for checks? While running 2000 rpm, check batter lead and then the cables. Now shake leads with while checking. Or the regulator is truly bad. Usually it's the little stuff or your old battery shorted inside as it went and took out the regulator.
Are you really having a problem??starting?? Could be the stupid gage. See it many times.
Rev. 111015
Some electrical 101 and a little more..
Remember, the best made brand new battery that has been on a maintenance charger for 3 days that has a loose or bad connection is no better then a boat anchor with a loose rope. The connection can get loose after one ride if the battery is not anchored and the wires are short and get tugged in a direction that can unscrew the bolts.
After a good 24+ hour maintenance low amperage charge, with the charge light in the solid green and the battery has set about 24 hours off charge, voltage should be about 12.8 volts.
12.8 = full charged
12.6 = 75% charged
12.3 = 50% charged (Lot of new modern cars with system protection will not even click at this point but will have good headlight beams showing)
12.0 =25% charged
Always check both the terminals at the battery lead and also at the terminal on the wire. That helps to verify connection. With a DC volt meter (one that has a feature to lock high and low reading is best) hooked across the battery terminals and reading 12.8 or so, crank motor and while its cranking it should not drop below about 9.6 volts and as soon as it starts and throttled up to 2000 rpm, voltage should read around 14.8 volts. The 2000 rpm is the bench mark standard. Ignore idle output. Ignore output above 2000rpm unless it exceeds 14.9 volts. That is a sure indication that regulator is bad.
The crank check shows a rough check of the reserve amperage capacity of the battery while cranking with a 150-200 amp load on it. The 14.8 shows a good alternator and if you leave it on a while as the regulatory will drop the voltage a little showing itself working. However, with the lights and stuff always on, it will never drop back much. If you have a lot of options, most modern bikes will not show 14.8 charging volts at idle but stock newer bikes will be close. Older bikes with lower amperage output not so much. However, 2000 rpm is the bench mark for the standard 14.8 volts.
If you think battery is good and something is draining it sitting, now would be a good time to check for drain problems. Go to Harbor Freight and get you a AC/DC meter for under $25 or so. http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-d...ter-37772.html Make sure it has DC amps draw, DC voltage, resistance and AC voltage. Key off. Remove the negative cable off the battery. Set meter on DC amps. Hook the meter lead to cable and the other to battery. How many milliamps (mA) is it drawing? It should be no more then 6 mA which is the ECM (1), speedometer (1), tac,TSSM (1),HFSM (1) and voltage regulator (1)
When a battery wears out, a good charge will show fairly good voltage, but the battery can still have very low amperage capacity which will show in the crude crank test above, but it really should be checked after a good charge by removing it from bike and getting a free check at a place like AutoZone that has a fancy load meter check that gives you a print out of the battery health. Battery MUST BE CHARGED to check it. Be sure they set their meter to correct cold cranking amperage stated on the battery. Never charge the AGM absorbed glass mat battery with a regular car battery charger unless it is a newer one that says safe with this type of battery. Also, by taking battery out you now know you have good connections. Vibration tends to loosen the connections or a little corrosion will prevent charging or cause starting problems. Be forwarned, these checks quite often are incorrect due to the low amperage of these small batteries and junk checking equipment. If bike is charging , no load on battery when key is off and you are still having problems…REPLACE THE BATTERY. If battery is more then 3-4 years old.. REPLACE THE BATTERY.
Using the maintenance charger can get more years from a battery but be careful here. You do not want the last start 5 miles from home. If it still grunts when you first hit starter or kicks back with a bang, replace it. After a few years, charge and pull battery and have it checked for cold cranking amperage ever spring. Even then, if it grunts most ever start, I would replace it. Most battery checkers at AutoZone and places like that do not do really well on the low amperage setting on small batteries. Not sure why but they tend to say they are OK when they are weak. If they have one that fits your bike, Wal-Mart's AGM absorbed glass mat battery is just as good as any for one third to half the money of a Harley Battery. Do not put an old fashion one with vent tubes on a modern TC Harley. Do not jump, push start or run bike with a half dead battery except in a real emergency. If a bike battery is down and you jump it, throwing all that amps to it from a big car battery especially one that is running can wreck a bike regulator or charging system. Charging a worn out battery can kill alternator stator or the voltage regulator or both. Probably ending in a big dollar repair in parts alone.
It is also a good idea to always check your battery at 2000 RPM with your meter set to AC. If by chance, the regulator goes bad, sometimes it will let AC come thru. That is a sure sign of a bad regulator. Older 2 wire stators have a single phase output while the newer stators with 3 wires have a 3 phase output. The 3 phase system provides a more consistent and higher current output to the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator takes the AC from the alternator, rectifies it to DC and limits the voltage level to the battery depending on the voltage reading it gets back from the battery.
Also remember, when starting a Harley, hit the starter and hold it in till it is firing on both cylinders and running before letting up. If you let up before it’s running, quiet often, it actually take an FI motor longer to start. There is a fraction of a second more for a long stroke Harley then a multi-cylinder car for it to get going. If you do not do this, it will kick back with a bang, sneeze thru the intake or crank a lot longer the second time or shame on you the third time. Also, if you have a habit of doing this, the starter solenoid switch contact will only have half the life it could. You cannot hurt the starter. The starter gear has a sprag clutch. There are drive pins in it that as the gas motor catches and run, it outruns the starter motor drive and disengages it from the electric motor. If you hold it in a little too long and listen carefully, you will hear the sprag clutch run up the ramps and slip. Makes a sizzle hum. This will show you your starter sprag clutch is OK.
New battery could still be bad. Probably either that or your connects are not really tight. Are you depending on them total for checks? While running 2000 rpm, check batter lead and then the cables. Now shake leads with while checking. Or the regulator is truly bad. Usually it's the little stuff or your old battery shorted inside as it went and took out the regulator.
Are you really having a problem??starting?? Could be the stupid gage. See it many times.
#5
05-16-2016, 07:00 PM
Club Member
Glad you got it working 
I haven't found any way to test a good VR. I took one apart a few months ago and was amazed at the number of components inside. It's not a basic full wave bridge rectifier. In the Electrical diagnostic manual they give tests for Stator output, phase resistance and how to check phase to ground. For the VR it basically says if stator tests are good and voltage is above 15.5 replace the VR, if voltage is below 13 and conductors from the VR are good, replace the VR .
Good luck
Bill
I haven't found any way to test a good VR. I took one apart a few months ago and was amazed at the number of components inside. It's not a basic full wave bridge rectifier. In the Electrical diagnostic manual they give tests for Stator output, phase resistance and how to check phase to ground. For the VR it basically says if stator tests are good and voltage is above 15.5 replace the VR, if voltage is below 13 and conductors from the VR are good, replace the VR .
Good luck
Bill
The following users liked this post:
Fatair96 (05-16-2016)
#6
05-16-2016, 10:16 PM
Ripsaw,
Thanks for the response, the video I watched stated that there should be no audible sound from the stater on an ohm test with engine off, with the engine on at 2000rpm it should be 42v or at least an increase of volts to the 42v. Also I do have a new battery, with that being said it is showing an increase in volts from idle to 2000. What is happening now is once ignition is on both engine light and battery light go off as normal but a second later the engine light appears for maybe 2 seconds then goes off??? Is this normal since the VR was replaced and needs to (I don't know) even though it is solid state? Also the battery is on a trickle charger since it was installed again today. Electrical isn't my best suite,but willing to learn and give it a try.
Steve
Thanks for the response, the video I watched stated that there should be no audible sound from the stater on an ohm test with engine off, with the engine on at 2000rpm it should be 42v or at least an increase of volts to the 42v. Also I do have a new battery, with that being said it is showing an increase in volts from idle to 2000. What is happening now is once ignition is on both engine light and battery light go off as normal but a second later the engine light appears for maybe 2 seconds then goes off??? Is this normal since the VR was replaced and needs to (I don't know) even though it is solid state? Also the battery is on a trickle charger since it was installed again today. Electrical isn't my best suite,but willing to learn and give it a try.
Steve
Last edited by Fatair96; 05-16-2016 at 10:24 PM.
#8
05-17-2016, 08:58 AM
Larsfum,
Thanks, would that only be able to be performed by a HD dealer, or is there an inexpensive reader for consumers that can be purchased that will plug in directly and have the ability to clear the code?
Steve
Thanks, would that only be able to be performed by a HD dealer, or is there an inexpensive reader for consumers that can be purchased that will plug in directly and have the ability to clear the code?
Steve
#9
05-17-2016, 09:58 AM
Larsfum,
Thanks, would that only be able to be performed by a HD dealer, or is there an inexpensive reader for consumers that can be purchased that will plug in directly and have the ability to clear the code?
Steve
Thanks, would that only be able to be performed by a HD dealer, or is there an inexpensive reader for consumers that can be purchased that will plug in directly and have the ability to clear the code?
Steve
