Power Vision Information Thread
#8771
09-29-2016, 10:54 AM
Sarhan, Gordon you are both correct an this is an unfortunate trend I have been seeing with the Powervision for the past few years.
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
I understand that this is your opinion and really? That is all it is. Have you used the TTS HD06 with analog inputs? How do you find this more cumbersome than the vision? How can you compare the TTS with any of the tuners out there with out having first hand knowledge of the TTS? I'm not bringing this up to just argue. I bring it up because people reading this should understand your experience with each device.
"Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both."
How so? It does less at a much slower speed. Has less expandability and only allows you do one thing at a time. As you have stated. No EGR, no cam timing, no spark knock, but this does all work with TTS and TTS actually has a manual that you can read.
IMO based on using the different system on a monthly basis. DJ aimed for the DIY guy or street tuning. This is stage ones and mild stage twos. This can be seen with everything being contained in the unit and not giving the pro tuner the option to just use it as a pass through unit. It doesn't have decent software to look at the recorded data. They basically want to pigeon hole you into just using what they offer as wash programs. Problem is, garbage in, garbage out is still in play.
Big cubic inch, high compression, long overlap high duration cams bring in a whole different conversation when comparing the tuners and most aren't trying to tackle these on the street.
BTW TTS released their 17 cals for different stages last week. I state this because you typed up to 16. Now the other companies are following suit.
#8772
09-29-2016, 10:56 AM
Gordon- From a hardware and device perspective, yes you are right there is no comparison the PV is way superior. But the FP3 has come a long way and it could come further.
From an actual usability perspective, and the perspective of someone trying to tune their bike and not knowing anything about tuning or the PV, it is coming across as a very basic device geared towards stock or stock improved only.
Just look at the lack of tune library and documentation. that speaks volumes unfortunately. And I actually really like my PV. I'm just laying it out so hopefully these deficiencies are remedied. Otherwise this product is going to lose market share.
From an actual usability perspective, and the perspective of someone trying to tune their bike and not knowing anything about tuning or the PV, it is coming across as a very basic device geared towards stock or stock improved only.
Just look at the lack of tune library and documentation. that speaks volumes unfortunately. And I actually really like my PV. I'm just laying it out so hopefully these deficiencies are remedied. Otherwise this product is going to lose market share.
Last edited by LA_Dog; 09-29-2016 at 11:02 AM.
#8773
09-29-2016, 11:01 AM
I'm back at square 1 with the 48h cams, and since the TTS system is different the CDE tables don't; stack up with PVs CDE tables so I can't really reference those tune files. there are no other references to find, so short of just getting a dyno tune it will be a manual process of looking at log data and trying lots of small changes, and the re-tuning VE's each time. painfully slow process
#8774
09-29-2016, 11:17 AM
Sarhan, Gordon you are both correct an this is an unfortunate trend I have been seeing with the Powervision for the past few years.
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
I suspect that DJ is now the largest maker of motorcycle tuning devices (beyond Harley) and therefore a prime target of an EPA that just showed its desire to "squeeze" Harley in their recent $12MM "Emissions" settlement. As always, a heavy handed government goes where the $ is and Harley is the largest street motorcycle maker in the US and DJ (after Harley's Street tuner) is the largest engine tuning device manufacturer.
I doubt we'll see a response to the issues raised above if in fact the EPA has had a hidden hand in some of the changes being experienced. I was one of the first PV users and its an outstanding tool. But I was disappointed when they eliminated the log tuner tool and now some of these additional changes have all the smell of a bureaucrat's involvement.
Last edited by Heatwave; 09-29-2016 at 11:27 AM.
#8775
09-29-2016, 11:19 AM
I understand that this is your opinion and really? That is all it is. Have you used the TTS HD06 with analog inputs? How do you find this more cumbersome than the vision? How can you compare the TTS with any of the tuners out there with out having first hand knowledge of the TTS? I'm not bringing this up to just argue. I bring it up because people reading this should understand your experience with each device.
"Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both."
How so? It does less at a much slower speed. Has less expandability and only allows you do one thing at a time. As you have stated. No EGR, no cam timing, no spark knock, but this does all work with TTS and TTS actually has a manual that you can read.
IMO based on using the different system on a monthly basis. DJ aimed for the DIY guy or street tuning. This is stage ones and mild stage twos. This can be seen with everything being contained in the unit and not giving the pro tuner the option to just use it as a pass through unit. It doesn't have decent software to look at the recorded data. They basically want to pigeon hole you into just using what they offer as wash programs. Problem is, garbage in, garbage out is still in play.
Big cubic inch, high compression, long overlap high duration cams bring in a whole different conversation when comparing the tuners and most aren't trying to tackle these on the street.
BTW TTS released their 17 cals for different stages last week. I state this because you typed up to 16. Now the other companies are following suit.
"Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both."
How so? It does less at a much slower speed. Has less expandability and only allows you do one thing at a time. As you have stated. No EGR, no cam timing, no spark knock, but this does all work with TTS and TTS actually has a manual that you can read.
IMO based on using the different system on a monthly basis. DJ aimed for the DIY guy or street tuning. This is stage ones and mild stage twos. This can be seen with everything being contained in the unit and not giving the pro tuner the option to just use it as a pass through unit. It doesn't have decent software to look at the recorded data. They basically want to pigeon hole you into just using what they offer as wash programs. Problem is, garbage in, garbage out is still in play.
Big cubic inch, high compression, long overlap high duration cams bring in a whole different conversation when comparing the tuners and most aren't trying to tackle these on the street.
BTW TTS released their 17 cals for different stages last week. I state this because you typed up to 16. Now the other companies are following suit.
Any time anyone remotely mentions anything about TTS that you do not like, regardless of the actual topic of the thread, you come in pissing all over the thread with your "TTS correct" antics and pull the entire thread off course. Stop pulling this BS everywhere.
I mean, who gives a crap here that TTS has '17 files in the context of this thread? No one. How does it help this thread? Not one bit.
Anyone who is shopping for a tuning device, doing comparisons, and has at least three brain cells will take the time to research, ask questions and probably contact someone like you for TTS facts.
Nothing I have to say about the TTS in a non-related forum thread makes any diff. Nor have I ever said anything negative about it anyway.
PS - Turn off your forum search alert for "TTS" being mentioned somewhere. I think Steve is going to do just fine with his tuning product without your mad-******* everyone at this forum on his behalf.
#8776
09-29-2016, 11:25 AM
Might I suggest a possible Scenario 3?? Is it possible that DJ as a larger company has been "leaned" on by the EPA to control who does and does not have "unlimited" control of engine tuning variables as a mechanism of controlling fuel utilization and therefore emissions??
I suspect that DJ is now the largest maker of motorcycle tuning devices (beyond Harley) and therefore a prime target of an EPA that just showed its desire to "squeeze" Harley in their recent $12MM settlement. As always, a heavy handed government goes where the $ is and Harley is the largest street motorcycle maker in the US and DJ (after Harley's Street tuner) is the largest engine tuning device manufacturer.
I doubt we'll see a response to the issues raised above if in fact the EPA has had a hidden hand in some of the changes being experienced. I was one of the first PV users and its an outstanding tool. But I was disappointed when they eliminated the logging tool and now some of these additional changes have all the smell of a bureaucrat's involvement.
I suspect that DJ is now the largest maker of motorcycle tuning devices (beyond Harley) and therefore a prime target of an EPA that just showed its desire to "squeeze" Harley in their recent $12MM settlement. As always, a heavy handed government goes where the $ is and Harley is the largest street motorcycle maker in the US and DJ (after Harley's Street tuner) is the largest engine tuning device manufacturer.
I doubt we'll see a response to the issues raised above if in fact the EPA has had a hidden hand in some of the changes being experienced. I was one of the first PV users and its an outstanding tool. But I was disappointed when they eliminated the logging tool and now some of these additional changes have all the smell of a bureaucrat's involvement.
Although, if you look at the automotive tuning product equivalents, they show no signs of limitations or lack of tuning features. the automotive world has long been under greater epa scrutiny.
so it may really be more about DJ dropping the ball than cowering to fed regs. If so then at least, that has potential to be fixable.
#8777
09-29-2016, 11:40 AM
yep that is extremely plausible and I might concur on that- as unfortunate as it may sound. Question, why is it that other tuning products are "getting away with it" so handily? If it is indeed epa involvement, then it's probably just a question of the hammer making its way around.
Although, if you look at the automotive tuning product equivalents, they show no signs of limitations or lack of tuning features. the automotive world has long been under greater epa scrutiny.
so it may really be more about DJ dropping the ball than cowering to fed regs. If so then at least, that has potential to be fixable.
Although, if you look at the automotive tuning product equivalents, they show no signs of limitations or lack of tuning features. the automotive world has long been under greater epa scrutiny.
so it may really be more about DJ dropping the ball than cowering to fed regs. If so then at least, that has potential to be fixable.
Personally, I'm glad that there are other tuning products on the market and I suspect if they remain a smaller segment of the market they will remain "under the radar" of a bureaucracy that has run-amuck (IMO). Its all a #s game.
#8778
09-29-2016, 12:45 PM
Might I suggest a possible Scenario 3?? Is it possible that DJ as a larger company has been "leaned" on by the EPA to control who does and does not have "unlimited" control of engine tuning variables as a mechanism of controlling fuel utilization and therefore emissions?? Is it possible the EPA allowed the continued sale of these tuning products but with constraints that limited full access to a few "authorized" dealers instead of the consumer.
I suspect that DJ is now the largest maker of motorcycle tuning devices (beyond Harley) and therefore a prime target of an EPA that just showed its desire to "squeeze" Harley in their recent $12MM "Emissions" settlement. As always, a heavy handed government goes where the $ is and Harley is the largest street motorcycle maker in the US and DJ (after Harley's Street tuner) is the largest engine tuning device manufacturer.
I doubt we'll see a response to the issues raised above if in fact the EPA has had a hidden hand in some of the changes being experienced. I was one of the first PV users and its an outstanding tool. But I was disappointed when they eliminated the log tuner tool and now some of these additional changes have all the smell of a bureaucrat's involvement.
I suspect that DJ is now the largest maker of motorcycle tuning devices (beyond Harley) and therefore a prime target of an EPA that just showed its desire to "squeeze" Harley in their recent $12MM "Emissions" settlement. As always, a heavy handed government goes where the $ is and Harley is the largest street motorcycle maker in the US and DJ (after Harley's Street tuner) is the largest engine tuning device manufacturer.
I doubt we'll see a response to the issues raised above if in fact the EPA has had a hidden hand in some of the changes being experienced. I was one of the first PV users and its an outstanding tool. But I was disappointed when they eliminated the log tuner tool and now some of these additional changes have all the smell of a bureaucrat's involvement.
Doubt that is the case. A bigger tuning market is the auto world and they haven't seemed to mess with the big 2 or the smaller ones in that industry.
#8779
09-29-2016, 01:01 PM
Sarhan, Gordon you are both correct an this is an unfortunate trend I have been seeing with the Powervision for the past few years.
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
It really seems like it is being pushed towards the tuning of stock or mildly stock improved bikes only. This is really a shame because IMO this is actually the best piece of tuning hardware out, and, you can get complete wide-band O2 tuning and real time engine operation now with the TT add on. that is huge. otherwise you'd have to buy a Daytona Twin Tec system and complete ECM replacement in order to get that level of wide band tuning and engine operation.
The TTS no doubt has an immense tuning library of stock, stock modified, stage 1, stage 2,3,4 etc combos of all manner of cams / pipes etc. and as current as 2016 bikes - it has cam timing event tuning, and EGR tuning. But no real time wideband operation, and wideband tuning is a bit cumbersome.
The V&H FP3 has really grown into a nice tuning product albeit much more "plug n play" friendly for those wanting a simplified tuning experience- but - it has a lot of settings available now including cam timing events!
How is it that the TTS and the FP3 both allow you to tune and edit the cam timing events, but the Powervision does not and DJ still refuse to make this available, or give us an actual performance tuning library of popular aftermarket upgrades?
Powervision:
There is *no* comprehensive tune DB at all- stock and stock improved only, stage 1 at most and only a few pipes and AC combos.
No cam events settings or tuning
No EGR tuning
Nothing to make sense of the logged ride data or analyze it to improve the tune, suggest improvements etc (you have to learn how to use MLV and that is not easy! - or, you have to buy "MyTune" software which is nice but another $50)
Spark tuning is still a broken useless feature.
Tech support is difficult and limited if you do not buy the PV from Fuel Moto. Dynojet has one single guy that handles PV and PV-TT questions, you must contact this person and ask for a tune file for your bike, cams etc. - it can be upwards of a few days if you emailed and are waiting for a response and tune file, and if you call you may not reach that person. And when you do reach that person your time will be limited because that person is overly busy.
Both times contacting DJ for a cam tune file have been very limited in help. the tune file sent to me for my 57h cams did not work, bike would not idle properly and MAP kpa was out of whack. Fortunately FM helped me by sending a base map that had correct timing events in it. that was very nice of FM considering I am not one of their PV customers.
The 48h map DJ sent me seems to work on the cam events, but the rest of the settings in the tune file were completely up to me to set up. Timing, VE's etc etc. - I had to look at some TTS tune library files in order to get some references on close settings. lame that I had to go that route.
My kpa is still a bit high at idle (36-38) but i have no ability to change cam events or analyze log data to ensure the "hidden" cam settings are optimal.
Sure, I got everything running but it was 5x harder than it should have been and fortunately I have some tuning experience / tech minded. I don't think the average person could have bought the PV, installed cams in their bike along with larger injectors and TB, and have an easy time getting the bike to run and tune properly. There are no library tunes to reference and any tune file you gt from DJ i going to be rather generic, and may or may not have the right cam events in it. And, you might need to wait a day or three to even get the tune file!! It seems everything is set up by DJ now to dismiss advanced performance type of use of the PV product.
Fortunately, if you buy the PV from FM you have a good tuning tech resource to help get you set up with a starting base tune for your combo. But of course they are good at this because they sell nice motor upgrade kits and know what they are doing.
However, I think it is plain wrong that the only place someone can get proper tuning help and support for the PV is from FM. Many of us did not buy our PV from FM so why are we basically screwed?
So essentially what I'm saying, and what I think others are starting to experience regularly, is a large amount if difficulty with tuning a bike with the PV if you upgrade your motor-related components beyond stage1. There are no maps in the library to use or reference, and advanced tuning support through DJ is very limited.
I don't know if DJ is aware, or maybe they are and don't really care- But this trend is really hurting a very capable piece of tuning hardware that can (realistically) only really be used by owners of stock / stage1 bikes or experienced tuners with access to a dyno, data analysis software for interpreting the logged data, etc. - I want to continue to recommend this product simply for the fact that it works well and actually has wide band O2 tuning and engine operation, but it's getting harder and harder for me to do so due to lack of support and a horribly pathetic (almost insulting) tune database.
What is happening in my view is:
Riders who have a stock to stage 1 bike, or even those with drop in cams, and are not technical, are opting for the FP3 since it has an easy user interface and there is no drama if you upgrade cams. it is not an optimal tuning device for more advanced builds but it works well and is good for non-tech riders.
Those who want more complex tuning and are technical, are opting to go with the TTS. Mainly one look at the robust tune library, and the tuning guides / manual, and you feel some confidence in what the product was designed for. The data logging actually has an analysis and improvement function so you're not just looking at "greek" log data but don't know what to do with it.
To me the PV is becoming more of a competitive device to the FP3 than the TTS, really geared to tuning stock or stage1 bikes. Hence Sarhan's comments and Gordon's comments above. Even though the PV is clearly a superior piece of hardware to both.
I think the main problem here is one of two things:
#1. the project manager or exec in charge of PV development has no experience with tuning, does not ride, does not modify their own bike and does not use the PV in the way most of us would like to use it.
Or
#2. Dynojet as a company has the wrong focus on the PV product and is more interested in dyno sales than properly maintaining a competitive, well supported DIY tuning device. The feature limitations, lack of guides / documentation, and lack of tune library support are on purpose in order to prevent cannibalization of customers to their dyno purchasers and operators.
Scenario #1 is typical of a company that makes a tech product but never actually uses it themselves and has no personal passion for the device. When you look at the TTS for example, the documentation and features, it is evident that the person in charge of its direction has a lot of passion for what they do and tuning in general.
Scenario #2 is typical of a company that has a conflict of interest between products and is trying to help support the revenue of the more expensive product (Dyno machines) at the expense of the lesser costing product (Powervision). The downplaying of the lesser product is going to persist until the company can learn to comfortable and properly support both.
It may also be a case where the company has grown so large they no longer have any passion for what they produce.
All you have to do is look at the lame documentation and "KB" or "FAQ" page for the Powervision, to know that things are just not right. Something you'd see more of with an overseas China product than a USA company product.
You would think that the company who makes, sells and trains tuners on the wold-class Dynojet machines would have the BEST tune library, BEST documentation / guides, and tuning features in a personal tuning product. Right?!?
But that is very sadly, not the case.
Wait! what about the new TT feature though- which is incredibly advanced, and awesome - and - has ZERO real documentation or comprehensive tuning guide, or even a tune library of TT-enabled tune files?? Nothing! So this leaves me scratching my head... WTF are they doing over there at DJ?
***All comments above should be considered constructive product feedback.***
This is the Powervision Information Thread, not the TTS thread. The TTS is a great tuning option for some and from what I have looked at on it, it has a lot of great features. That is not what we are discussing here.
Any time anyone remotely mentions anything about TTS that you do not like, regardless of the actual topic of the thread, you come in pissing all over the thread with your "TTS correct" antics and pull the entire thread off course. Stop pulling this BS everywhere.
I mean, who gives a crap here that TTS has '17 files in the context of this thread? No one. How does it help this thread? Not one bit.
Anyone who is shopping for a tuning device, doing comparisons, and has at least three brain cells will take the time to research, ask questions and probably contact someone like you for TTS facts.
Nothing I have to say about the TTS in a non-related forum thread makes any diff. Nor have I ever said anything negative about it anyway.
PS - Turn off your forum search alert for "TTS" being mentioned somewhere. I think Steve is going to do just fine with his tuning product without your mad-******* everyone at this forum on his behalf.
Any time anyone remotely mentions anything about TTS that you do not like, regardless of the actual topic of the thread, you come in pissing all over the thread with your "TTS correct" antics and pull the entire thread off course. Stop pulling this BS everywhere.
I mean, who gives a crap here that TTS has '17 files in the context of this thread? No one. How does it help this thread? Not one bit.
Anyone who is shopping for a tuning device, doing comparisons, and has at least three brain cells will take the time to research, ask questions and probably contact someone like you for TTS facts.
Nothing I have to say about the TTS in a non-related forum thread makes any diff. Nor have I ever said anything negative about it anyway.
PS - Turn off your forum search alert for "TTS" being mentioned somewhere. I think Steve is going to do just fine with his tuning product without your mad-******* everyone at this forum on his behalf.
Sorry the thread isn't going the way you want. It is an open forum and if a mod thinks I am way OT after you brought it up. They can delete my post. No problem. It's your opinion that I am pissing on this thread. Like I said before. Just because that is your opinion doesn't make it a reality.
You are wrong about the available calibrations. I corrected you. You make pretty bold statements about a device you have never used. This is based on feelings and opinions and not knowledge. I just asked if you could back up or clarify any of those opinions. You answered.
I have tuned an uncountable number of bikes with the Vision. What makes it OK for you to give your opinion on it but I can't? I didn't bash on the product. I basically said less than you did. So, lets not be hypocrites and understand it's an open forum and people have different opinions.
#8780
09-29-2016, 01:22 PM
Its also worth noting that the EPA Consent Decree states
"Defendants (HD) shall deny all warranty claims for functional defects of powertrain components for any Harley-Davidson vehicle (Model Year 2017 or later) registered in the United States, if any Defendants have any information to show that such vehicle was tuned using a Tuning Product that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA." https://www.epa.gov/sites/production...avidson-cd.pdf
As an aside, this government has gone so power hungry, that not only did HD have to pay a $12Million fine for the Race tuner "violation", but they also have to provide $3,000,000 funding for research on pollutants from "wood-burning" stoves. Talk about using a heavy hand to steal money...this is simple extortion by a radical left-wing government!
https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/harl...ent#violations
In light of all this government activity, its hard for me to believe that the government hasn't been involved in changes to the aftermarket tuners as well.
Last edited by Heatwave; 09-29-2016 at 01:25 PM.