If you don't have to revert your tune back to being non-TT enabled to do the dyno tuning, then I guess that my original question still applies then...

So if using TT, then presumably the whole tune is done with the WB's. Any issues/implications with that?

 

Why you're at it... You wouldn't happen to have some VE table delta comparisons between VE tables that were first calibrated with "auto tune" and the results after the same bike was dyno tuned? It would be interesting to see (actual concrete evidence) how well "auto tune" does it's job calibrating the VE tables.

 

No reason to use a different set of sensors to tune a TT equipped bike. Especially considering these are the sensors that are going to be driving closed loop when the tune is finished.

I don't have specific examples however if you are using the same sensors, same data sets, and the same application for generating VE corrections they are going to be close. The only difference is going to be how the data is collected. On the street you have the advantage of collecting data in the actual conditions you are running in, however you are somewhat limited in operating range as you need to stay within limitations and there are simply some areas that are difficult (if not possible) to get to in the tune. On the other hand with a load control dyno you have much more control over the operating range, you can get to area's of the tune that you cannot on the street, and you can also keep conditions such as engine temps under control. Also consider VE is only one aspect of the tune, while this is extremely important there are an assortment of other tables related to fuel & timing that are attended to with a proper dyno tune, this needs to be considered when street tuning, you really rely on the accuracy of the other tables. On the dyno for tuning VE we historically use the Auto Tune application while running PV logs at the same time, we then export the tune corrections & logs in WinPv and Power Core, generate updated VE tables, the retest until they are where we want them. As of recently for CANbus bikes the Tune Lab feature in Power Core now has the ability to view a live histogram right in the dyno software while you are tuning and you can generate tune corrections using either stock O2 sensors, wideband sensors, or a combination of both.

 

With this I'm familiar...

Presents another question... How do you see the slower response times etc. of the WB's factoring in trying to calibrate VE tables on the streets? You can hold the bike in cells long enough with the dyno to mitigate that. No? Might be a little tougher proposition trying to do that on the streets. Do you see better auto tune results (done on the street) with NB vs. WB's?

 

So if my dyno guy has a 250i, we can hook up directly to my power vision/target tune, but only if he has a newer DynoWare RT (DWRT) box and is running the newer Power Core software (and proper cabling)? Since my guy has an older 250i, I'm assuming he still uses older software. I would obviously rather use my Target Tune's widebands, vs his sniffer, since that's what will stay on the bike. If we can't hook into my sensors, would we just disable the open loop in the PV map and tune like a conventional Power Vision setup? Then once it's dialed in, turn the closed loop back on for normal riding?

I was there a couple years ago when he was tuning a bike with a Power Vision, but I think he just had it plugged into the dyno's laptop to do the spark and ve changes. I know he had a (normal dynojet vacuum pump) sniffer in the tailpipe.

 

 

The importance of centering the trims in the VE tables is there no matter what sensors, or if it is being tuned on the road or a dyno. The strategy is going to be the same because it is still all based on the underlying code in the ECM and how the long term and short term trims work.

I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.

Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.

 

 

hrdtail78
The importance of centering the trims in the VE tables is there no matter what sensors, or if it is being tuned on the road or a dyno. The strategy is going to be the same because it is still all based on the underlying code in the ECM and how the long term and short term trims work.

I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.

Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.






Man it took SC forever to tell you how to reply...I'm kidding, I'm kidding!!!