HD Service Centers Voiding Warranties
#81
11-15-2008, 09:43 PM
Road Master
Let me make this as easy as possible. The MM act of 1975 was enacted before the technology age of vehicles and is very vague. Yes it does protect the consumer but there are many lawyers out there that can tear this to shreds in regards to fuel injection, computers , tune etc.
First off yes the MOCO can tell if any type of tuner is installed. Like posted earlier there are parameter tests', since 2005 the speedo is driven from the ECM, the ECM has and hour operations meter, and other sources. With regards to the ThundeMax, every time you remove and or re-install a ECM it performs a passcode learn process, and will show a passive history code present in the ECM data while the TM was in use. Not all this data is avalable at a dealer level.
The truth is "ANY" change to the emmission setting will void your Powertrain only warranty. I have 16 years with the MOCO and they are concerned with Major situations in regards to the tune. If a dealer has installed and tuned wiht a SE Tuner, your chances are better but not guaranteed. The MOCO does not like other tuners because they "trick" the ECM to get to a desired setting. This taxes the ECM and sensors reducing life, and basically like posted before, "It's not theirs. Why should the MOCO pay for someone elses parts? If the dealer calls Tech Service for assistance, the first question they have "is it stock?" If a dealer can diagnosis and repair without needs of a Digital Tech or calling, the question never comes up. In regards to the guy's buddy with the blown motor and HD won't pay. All I have to say is there is more to the story. I am gonna get killed for this and no hate mail, but the MOCO does care about their customers. Only if you have not been watching the stock market would not know why manufactures are asking more questions. Money's tight everywhere.
First off yes the MOCO can tell if any type of tuner is installed. Like posted earlier there are parameter tests', since 2005 the speedo is driven from the ECM, the ECM has and hour operations meter, and other sources. With regards to the ThundeMax, every time you remove and or re-install a ECM it performs a passcode learn process, and will show a passive history code present in the ECM data while the TM was in use. Not all this data is avalable at a dealer level.
The truth is "ANY" change to the emmission setting will void your Powertrain only warranty. I have 16 years with the MOCO and they are concerned with Major situations in regards to the tune. If a dealer has installed and tuned wiht a SE Tuner, your chances are better but not guaranteed. The MOCO does not like other tuners because they "trick" the ECM to get to a desired setting. This taxes the ECM and sensors reducing life, and basically like posted before, "It's not theirs. Why should the MOCO pay for someone elses parts? If the dealer calls Tech Service for assistance, the first question they have "is it stock?" If a dealer can diagnosis and repair without needs of a Digital Tech or calling, the question never comes up. In regards to the guy's buddy with the blown motor and HD won't pay. All I have to say is there is more to the story. I am gonna get killed for this and no hate mail, but the MOCO does care about their customers. Only if you have not been watching the stock market would not know why manufactures are asking more questions. Money's tight everywhere.
I for one would be very interested to know (of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to) if you ride, what you ride, if any mods, and if so how do you handle your tuning needs? I too of course appreciate your post.
#82
11-15-2008, 10:13 PM
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Gutman,
Thanks for the informative reply. I can see Moco's position on messing with the tune. Of course we do have a 3d party involved; the EPA. My concern is the high heat in the jugs. Are we looking at a shortened life span, even though they make it through waranty? We're all probably debating heat & life past warranty vs current warranty.
Thanks for the informative reply. I can see Moco's position on messing with the tune. Of course we do have a 3d party involved; the EPA. My concern is the high heat in the jugs. Are we looking at a shortened life span, even though they make it through waranty? We're all probably debating heat & life past warranty vs current warranty.
#83
11-15-2008, 10:18 PM
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#84
11-16-2008, 08:10 AM
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Why all the paranoia? I think their are two options. Get the extended warranty if you want it and have the dealer do all your mods - or - save your money and do the mods yourself and if the worst happens - just take the stuff off your bike before you take it in for service. The risk is probably very minimal that they will try and screw you out of warranty work. As has been stated before, dealers make a big portion of their income doing warranty work.
Personally I think it's worth an extra $500 to have the dealer do all the work, then tune it on their dyno and still be covered under warranty. I don't think any downloaded map is as good as a dyno tune so it's a win win.
Personally I think it's worth an extra $500 to have the dealer do all the work, then tune it on their dyno and still be covered under warranty. I don't think any downloaded map is as good as a dyno tune so it's a win win.
Last edited by ShooterSteve1953; 11-16-2008 at 08:13 AM.
#85
11-16-2008, 08:54 AM
Let me make this as easy as possible. The MM act of 1975 was enacted before the technology age of vehicles and is very vague. Yes it does protect the consumer but there are many lawyers out there that can tear this to shreds in regards to fuel injection, computers , tune etc.
First off yes the MOCO can tell if any type of tuner is installed. Like posted earlier there are parameter tests', since 2005 the speedo is driven from the ECM, the ECM has and hour operations meter, and other sources. With regards to the ThundeMax, every time you remove and or re-install a ECM it performs a passcode learn process, and will show a passive history code present in the ECM data while the TM was in use. Not all this data is avalable at a dealer level.
The truth is "ANY" change to the emmission setting will void your Powertrain only warranty. I have 16 years with the MOCO and they are concerned with Major situations in regards to the tune. If a dealer has installed and tuned wiht a SE Tuner, your chances are better but not guaranteed. The MOCO does not like other tuners because they "trick" the ECM to get to a desired setting. This taxes the ECM and sensors reducing life, and basically like posted before, "It's not theirs. Why should the MOCO pay for someone elses parts? If the dealer calls Tech Service for assistance, the first question they have "is it stock?" If a dealer can diagnosis and repair without needs of a Digital Tech or calling, the question never comes up. In regards to the guy's buddy with the blown motor and HD won't pay. All I have to say is there is more to the story. I am gonna get killed for this and no hate mail, but the MOCO does care about their customers. Only if you have not been watching the stock market would not know why manufactures are asking more questions. Money's tight everywhere.
First off yes the MOCO can tell if any type of tuner is installed. Like posted earlier there are parameter tests', since 2005 the speedo is driven from the ECM, the ECM has and hour operations meter, and other sources. With regards to the ThundeMax, every time you remove and or re-install a ECM it performs a passcode learn process, and will show a passive history code present in the ECM data while the TM was in use. Not all this data is avalable at a dealer level.
The truth is "ANY" change to the emmission setting will void your Powertrain only warranty. I have 16 years with the MOCO and they are concerned with Major situations in regards to the tune. If a dealer has installed and tuned wiht a SE Tuner, your chances are better but not guaranteed. The MOCO does not like other tuners because they "trick" the ECM to get to a desired setting. This taxes the ECM and sensors reducing life, and basically like posted before, "It's not theirs. Why should the MOCO pay for someone elses parts? If the dealer calls Tech Service for assistance, the first question they have "is it stock?" If a dealer can diagnosis and repair without needs of a Digital Tech or calling, the question never comes up. In regards to the guy's buddy with the blown motor and HD won't pay. All I have to say is there is more to the story. I am gonna get killed for this and no hate mail, but the MOCO does care about their customers. Only if you have not been watching the stock market would not know why manufactures are asking more questions. Money's tight everywhere.
I too appreciate your post. I do have a question that I would like your honest opinion on. If you have a tuner like the Thundermax or PC V with auto tune...These tuners are "taking good care" of the motor by constantly adjusting the timing, air/fuel, etc. to keep everything perfect in all differant types of conditions as fas as temperature and altitude. Dont you think thats better for the motor, and will give it longer life?
I have not had any issues with my bikes, but, my experiance with (car) dealers, and I have heard stories on here about HD service, is that they look for any excuse to get out of doing anything under warranty.
There was a guy here saying that he finds it funny that everyone here is looking for a loop hole to get out of the "voiding warranty" issue.
I find that dealers do exactly the same thing as far as trying to find a loop hole,and blame any little mod on a failure.
Im just having trouble seeing how a tuner with autotune is considered a bad thing in the MOCO's eyes.
#86
11-16-2008, 08:56 AM
If you read that guys post who works for the MOCO, if you have a failure, it still may not be covered under warranty.
#87
11-16-2008, 09:22 AM
Outstanding HDF Member
snippage
.......... I just can't understand why someone would attach one of these tuners to their bike rather than dynoing their bike and flashing the ECM with the correct codes.
I agree that if you do a lot of motor changes at variuos times these units allow you to change the tune on the fly, but at what cost?
And doesn't the newer SERT's allow you to change multiple times?
.......... I just can't understand why someone would attach one of these tuners to their bike rather than dynoing their bike and flashing the ECM with the correct codes.
I agree that if you do a lot of motor changes at variuos times these units allow you to change the tune on the fly, but at what cost?
And doesn't the newer SERT's allow you to change multiple times?
#88
11-16-2008, 09:50 AM
Here is what I found out from a Harley dealer yesterday (one in Marietta, GA - the only one there): in their eyes, the SEST will not void the warranty (a Harley part). She said the Fuelpak and PC will void the emissions warranty. Well I am not so sure I care about the emissions warranty, as here in Georgia, bikes have no emissions testing. If it were a car, then I would care, as I have had a Cat. converter replaced under the warranty, (that warranty usually is for 80,000 miles or so). Nevertheless, I am still leaning on the Super Tuner as opposed to the other choices, especially now that the dealer has 15% off parts and labor.
#89
11-16-2008, 10:14 AM
Road Master
I too spoke to 2 different dealer service managers yesterday, one in Al. one in Fl.(in person) and both told me the same thing. If I had either of them do the work, they will still honor my warranty even with a PC, Super Tuner and dyno. Both also told me yesterday independently of each other that if all I was looking for was more sound from the bike ie pipes install, they advised it would be perfectly OK to install my new Rinehart slipons as long as I did not change the air filter with no other fuel mgt, that the 02 sensors will compensate for this. Most importantly both stated this install will not impact my factory or extended warranty in any way. I refuse to let this issue be a black cloud over my riding any longer. I am installing the pipes today and if it turns out to not work to my satisfaction I will introduce fuel mgt and AC into the mix later. That's my plan.
#90
11-16-2008, 12:27 PM
the HD techs they are getting now a days are not like they use to be. The whole industry has gone down the toilet. Nobody wants to be a REAL mechanic anymore that has to go through an apprentice program. Now the industry is getting under educated people and the bikes are so complex so do the math. They have parts changers instead of people who can diagnose and fix it right the first time.