do i need atuner
#1
03-06-2011, 08:48 PM
do i need atuner
hi all . i just put on my samson fish tail mufflers on friday-i love theese pipes!11they sound great -33 inchers-any ways i just ordered my k& n stock replacement filter for the air cleener.i noticed i had alittle more back fire on decel i had a little before with the stockers .when i get the filter installed ,since it is astock replacment not a performance or forced do you think it will lean out the mix more.my main worry is damaging the engine or overheating,do you think a tuner is in order or is a small back fire on decel acceptable,ive noticed theese wild pig tuners for cheap$.pretty basic i know but im not planning more mods to the bike .any body tried this?im thinking it will work since i really if anything need to richen up the mix a hair .all replies much appreciated ...thasnks ...mike
#5
03-07-2011, 01:58 AM
maybe, maybe not.
year and model info would help-
It is likely that your bike may be lean- but I've ridden a few 09 and 11 bikes that had pipes and air cleaner with no tuner that ran great.
most of us open up the flow of air into the motor and reduce the restriction to the exhaust gasses coming out of the motor. that increased flow and velocity of air/gasses can cause a lean condition.
the later touring model ECM seems to be pretty good at compensating for slight changes.
popping can be caused by air leaking into a joint, can also be caused by reduced restriction allowing air to be pulled into the left pipe by the greater pulses of hot gasses going out the right pipe- then the oxygen in the fresh air makes it pop.
I myself like that traffic can hear me if I am slowing in congestion or coming to a stop- my old evo FXR pops pretty nice when slowing.
tuning:
my 09 had a persistant ping under certain conditions ( high gear, up 6% grades, 2800~3200 rpm) when completely stock.
This was only remedied when I put XIEDS on my o2 sensors ( nightrider.com about $100 )- solved the ping, I now run with pipes and air cleaner.
All my changes are removable should i have a warranty concern
I've ridden a couple of bikes with 'tuner" systems on them that ran poorly.
when I was shopping for a newer bike last year, one of the guys had a nice bike with a very expensive system that gave him poor power, lots of black smoke and 32 mpg...obviously he or his tech was in over their head
In your case, you are using a K&N filter in the stock housing- correct? You are less likely to be running lean ( BTW some guys use a hole saw to drill holes in the bottom of the plastic backing plate to get more air in- cheap easy and effective. If you get whistling, just change the size on the holes)
And does your bike have the catalytic converter in the headers? ( if so, that is a big bottleneck to flow, so your new mufflers wouldn't have changed flow characteristics much)
This is an Export model?- or a US model privately imported? that would help determine whether the cat is in place- if it is there you can tap the header with a pen and listen for a dull thunk...also does your header have the control valve in the exhaust crossover??
mike
year and model info would help-
It is likely that your bike may be lean- but I've ridden a few 09 and 11 bikes that had pipes and air cleaner with no tuner that ran great.
most of us open up the flow of air into the motor and reduce the restriction to the exhaust gasses coming out of the motor. that increased flow and velocity of air/gasses can cause a lean condition.
the later touring model ECM seems to be pretty good at compensating for slight changes.
popping can be caused by air leaking into a joint, can also be caused by reduced restriction allowing air to be pulled into the left pipe by the greater pulses of hot gasses going out the right pipe- then the oxygen in the fresh air makes it pop.
I myself like that traffic can hear me if I am slowing in congestion or coming to a stop- my old evo FXR pops pretty nice when slowing.
tuning:
my 09 had a persistant ping under certain conditions ( high gear, up 6% grades, 2800~3200 rpm) when completely stock.
This was only remedied when I put XIEDS on my o2 sensors ( nightrider.com about $100 )- solved the ping, I now run with pipes and air cleaner.
All my changes are removable should i have a warranty concern
I've ridden a couple of bikes with 'tuner" systems on them that ran poorly.
when I was shopping for a newer bike last year, one of the guys had a nice bike with a very expensive system that gave him poor power, lots of black smoke and 32 mpg...obviously he or his tech was in over their head
In your case, you are using a K&N filter in the stock housing- correct? You are less likely to be running lean ( BTW some guys use a hole saw to drill holes in the bottom of the plastic backing plate to get more air in- cheap easy and effective. If you get whistling, just change the size on the holes)
And does your bike have the catalytic converter in the headers? ( if so, that is a big bottleneck to flow, so your new mufflers wouldn't have changed flow characteristics much)
This is an Export model?- or a US model privately imported? that would help determine whether the cat is in place- if it is there you can tap the header with a pen and listen for a dull thunk...also does your header have the control valve in the exhaust crossover??
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; 03-07-2011 at 08:22 AM.
#7
03-07-2011, 09:00 AM
So is that bike sucking air in through the tailpipe or was it not properly tuned either.
What else did you try?
Pinging on a new stock bike wasn’t a great enough concern for a warranty claim?
I've ridden a couple of bikes with 'tuner" systems on them that ran poorly.
when I was shopping for a newer bike last year, one of the guys had a nice bike with a very expensive system that gave him poor power, lots of black smoke and 32 mpg...obviously he or his tech was in over their head
when I was shopping for a newer bike last year, one of the guys had a nice bike with a very expensive system that gave him poor power, lots of black smoke and 32 mpg...obviously he or his tech was in over their head
OP, do it right with a good tuner, if you go cheap you get cheap.
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#8
03-07-2011, 09:26 AM
I disagree with you about xied's. They work good for what they are designed to do. They are for People like myself who just want to enrich the closed loop. People who don't go any farther than Stage 1. Who just want their bikes to run cooler and most of their riding is in the closed loop. If you look at the Stock ECM, it has fuel values built in to handle some changes. The open loop is setup to enrichen even more. In your opinion, what Tuner do you recommend? I've personally run xied's on my last three bikes. They all performed well with no ill effect's. If I were racing still and a 10th of a second meant winning or losing, I would indeed find a good Tuner and Dyno my bike. JMO
#9
03-07-2011, 10:19 AM
So these bikes felt tuned to you, compared to what, your bike? The @ss dyno is relative to familiarization, you can feel changes to your bike, which is familiar to you, but you still can’t quantify those changes, and you surely cant jump on an unknown bike and make a comparative assumption about how it feels.
yes, a$$ dyno- bikes pulled fine through the range, no perceived pinging or other signs that mixture was way off.
My Pal stores in my garage his 2011 103 Limited, Pipes, header, air cleaner Dealer installed ( In B.C.) it runs quite well I ride it all the time.
I know this is not scientific- but the AD has been in practice for many years on bikes
Negative, even the late models run on narrow band O2 sensors they do not auto-tune like many of the new systems available today, if they did no one would need a tuner, huh.
like i said "slight changes" the ecm reacts to voltage change input from the o2 sensors under most riding conditions, outside of those conditions the open loop will run a richer mixture anyway
Good call on the air leak, but its not likely this otherwise stock bike is experiencing tail pipe reversion severe enough to cause popping, focus on the flange and pipe section joints. Some popping in a less restrictive induction system does not necessarily indicate a tuning problem.
So is that bike sucking air in through the tailpipe or was it not properly tuned either.
"Evo FXR" that would indicate carbed, which under deccel, the high intake vacuum results in an overly rich mixture- which allows unburnt fuel into the exhaust- which in my case is a supertrapp 2 into 1 which has tuned scavenging which increases the liklihood of this. the police cam also has long duration overlap, so more fuel out the pooper.
Again we discover an advantage of EFI, under similar circumstances the fuel can be decreased, and timing is more agile.
What kind of load were you putting on this stock machine and what kind of fuel were you feeding it?
Load- 330 pounds of me and stuff, most highway grades in AZ are 6%, this was repeatable over a few thousand miles in completely stock trim. Fuel premium pump gas, 96 with 10% ethanol
What else did you try?
Well, I started reading all the threads from the Guys who were having trouble with the "tuner" system they bought...I did some reading and had a recomendation from a rider here on the XIEDS. I sent the manufacturer ( Steve) questions by email, he answered.
Pinging on a new stock bike wasn’t a great enough concern for a warranty claim?
The response I got was that it was within normal bounds- and i tell you I could feel the timing retarding when this occurred.
crap I had a dog fight getting the recalled Dunlop 407 replaced under warranty!
Just based on your description it’s obvious that machine was not tuned properly. There is a big difference between having a "tuner" and being "tuned". You could have a blower hanging off a bike, but if it isn't set up properly it will run poorly too.
Yes, and that is why I did not buy it-
You would be doing this member a dis-service by steering him away from a proper tune in favor of the cheap fix XIEDs. They only enrich fuel in the cruise range; if his exhaust is not leaking then he will require a real tuner that can specifically manipulate deceleration enrichment/enleanment to take care of that popping, or al least most of it.
OP, do it right with a good tuner, if you go cheap you get cheap.
yes, a$$ dyno- bikes pulled fine through the range, no perceived pinging or other signs that mixture was way off.
My Pal stores in my garage his 2011 103 Limited, Pipes, header, air cleaner Dealer installed ( In B.C.) it runs quite well I ride it all the time.
I know this is not scientific- but the AD has been in practice for many years on bikes
Negative, even the late models run on narrow band O2 sensors they do not auto-tune like many of the new systems available today, if they did no one would need a tuner, huh.
like i said "slight changes" the ecm reacts to voltage change input from the o2 sensors under most riding conditions, outside of those conditions the open loop will run a richer mixture anyway
Good call on the air leak, but its not likely this otherwise stock bike is experiencing tail pipe reversion severe enough to cause popping, focus on the flange and pipe section joints. Some popping in a less restrictive induction system does not necessarily indicate a tuning problem.
So is that bike sucking air in through the tailpipe or was it not properly tuned either.
"Evo FXR" that would indicate carbed, which under deccel, the high intake vacuum results in an overly rich mixture- which allows unburnt fuel into the exhaust- which in my case is a supertrapp 2 into 1 which has tuned scavenging which increases the liklihood of this. the police cam also has long duration overlap, so more fuel out the pooper.
Again we discover an advantage of EFI, under similar circumstances the fuel can be decreased, and timing is more agile.
What kind of load were you putting on this stock machine and what kind of fuel were you feeding it?
Load- 330 pounds of me and stuff, most highway grades in AZ are 6%, this was repeatable over a few thousand miles in completely stock trim. Fuel premium pump gas, 96 with 10% ethanol
What else did you try?
Well, I started reading all the threads from the Guys who were having trouble with the "tuner" system they bought...I did some reading and had a recomendation from a rider here on the XIEDS. I sent the manufacturer ( Steve) questions by email, he answered.
Pinging on a new stock bike wasn’t a great enough concern for a warranty claim?
The response I got was that it was within normal bounds- and i tell you I could feel the timing retarding when this occurred.
crap I had a dog fight getting the recalled Dunlop 407 replaced under warranty!
Just based on your description it’s obvious that machine was not tuned properly. There is a big difference between having a "tuner" and being "tuned". You could have a blower hanging off a bike, but if it isn't set up properly it will run poorly too.
Yes, and that is why I did not buy it-
You would be doing this member a dis-service by steering him away from a proper tune in favor of the cheap fix XIEDs. They only enrich fuel in the cruise range; if his exhaust is not leaking then he will require a real tuner that can specifically manipulate deceleration enrichment/enleanment to take care of that popping, or al least most of it.
OP, do it right with a good tuner, if you go cheap you get cheap.
it is a balancing act of cost/performance/reliability ( always).
dis-service, hmmm. everything you read on the internet needs to be taken with a grain of salt. most people understand that.
let me say that I do not sell or have any affiliation with motorcycle parts manufacturers.
I describe what i have done for minimal cost, which provided a good result, now measured over thousands of miles under all kinds of conditions.
Whether a rider wants to try the device/method which has worked for me- or a method which has worked for another is their choice. If cost is a deciding factor the XIEDS offer a saving of 75%.
my background is a rider/hobbist I have owned many motorcycles and autos of many generations of technology.
My trade is in electronics, I have some automotive training, which I took out of interest.
I do try to quantify or make measurements when I can, I have measured the o2 sensor voltage when running the XIEDS, at the sensor and at the output of the XIED ( to the ECM) it appears to be doing what is should ( which is to fool the ecm into adding slightly more fuel than it would otherwise).
but sometimes the a$$ dyno , ears and experience are all we have- running up and down a stretch of road with a stopwatch and a speedo are primitive but give numbers that can be used to reach a coarse result.
BTW avg mpg while touring dropped from 44 to 43 with the xieds
Below poster makes an excellent point- I do my own services. It has been shown that H-D keeps records on bikes which are serviced ( which they should).
If needed the slip on Supertrapps and air cleaner take 30 ~40 minutes to swap to stock, the XIEDS plug in, so just a matter on unplugging them- 1 minute
mike
Last edited by mkguitar; 03-07-2011 at 05:43 PM.
#10
03-07-2011, 10:56 AM
Just my .02. Unless you take off your pipes, air cleaner and whatever bolt on tuner you have installed every time you take your bike to the shop you are fooling yourself into thinking that you can remove something after you have a warranty concern. Anything can be put into the computer any time without you knowing it was done. Say you go in for a 10,000 mile service and leave on your pipes and air cleaner - if the service department wants they can make a note. Once there is a note, you are SOL thinking you can hide whatever was there in your prior visits.
I'm not saying this is the way it is, I am just sayin'....
I'm not saying this is the way it is, I am just sayin'....