thank you i will check it out!

 

LA i want to first start off by saying i am in no way doubting or questioning you at all. It's basically a question. I just had mine done by a great dyno guy. He famous around here and you can't even go to him unless you know him. his work is meticulous. He is 70 years old and still goes to every dyno school they have to keep up with the times. when i brought him my bike i questioned the TB and injectors. he ported my heads, intake and did cams, gear drive and all that stuff. He has it at a true 100HP.(no tricks with tire pressure or drum weights or anything like that. this guy is legit). But he told me out injectors and TB are perfectly fine. He said i didn't need anything bigger at all. I even told him money was no object but he still said there were no need for bigger of either? what are your thoughts on that. He even showed me on the dyno his proof but i didn't really understand it

so i figured i would ask you about what he said.

 

If your bike rips, does not ping under load excessively, is not tuned "epa lean and friendly" with 14.3 everywhere in the AFR table, and you do not see any injector times in the data logs at or exceeding 80%, then you are good.

You can do 100hp max with the stock setup on a bike like mine. and that is really the safe max. there is only one thing that does not lie and that is the data logging. so keep an eye on it and learn what to look for in regards to your logged injector duty cycles and maximums.

Also this depends what year / model your bike is too- 2016 non touring softail has larger TB / injectors. before 2016, all touring bikes have larger TB and injectors. Even though these are all the same 103" motors with exception of some touring bikes getting wet heads.

Consider this:
Why do you think HD put the larger TB and injectors on touring bikes, and then on 2016 softail with the mildly cammed HO motor, if it is "not needed". Hmm. They certainly would not do it for no reason since changes like this are expensive.

What was the printed evidence? Did your dyno guy give you an AFR printout? that is what you need to see to ensure fueling is adequate and what AFR your bike is generally operating at across the rpm and load ranges.

"Don't accept any printouts w/o an AFR graph. Likewise don't accept AFR graphed on a 0-20 scale. That compresses the data so much almost anything looks good. Extra hint: Ask for a graphs of the both cylinders at 20 or 40% throttle with AFR on a 10-18 scale."
Reference: http://www.drdyno.com/tuningtips.html

Anyway I'm just giving you both sides of the coin to look at.

if you do see any issues, a larger set of OE injectors like the SE set are not that expensive or hard to install. you could fully live with the smaller stock TB size, that is less critical until you get into a 107" build or more in inches.

 

You're correct, they didn't do it for no reason. They did it because they went to TBW on the Softail, it would make perfect sense to use existing Touring parts to do this, vs having a whole new smaller throttle body built. This now allows them to add electronic cruise control, along with controlling when wide open throttle is allowed.

 

I definitely agree with that - although I was not aware the 50mm touring intake & plenum would fit the regular softail heads- unless HD also used non-wet touring heads on the 2016 softail, or a completely new head? Was wondering on that one.

part of my comment my was why HD used a larger TB and set of injectors on touring bike 103" motors, if the smaller diameter and 3.9 injectors on non touring 103's are supposedly more than adequate.

 

Thats what i thought. and thats why i asked. I don't know why though. he is very reputable. I tell him "money no object". He was already in there so it would of been a no brainer to change. I just don't get it.

Anyways would changing them on my own screw up the tune? I could never bring it back to him for another tune if i put those in myself(he's weird like that).

P.S. I have the same bike as you. Breakout. 2013

P.P.S the only paper i have is with the graph. Don;t think it has ARF readings on it. I wouldn't understand what they meant anyways. I'm a wrench but not at your level. I'm mostly a parts changer type mechanic. Have trouble diagnosing (unless it's a common diagnosis or problem)

And thanks for answering sir. I love reading your stuff. Can't wait to update my forks and tires. the only one i can't do (and the one we need the most) is the sprockets. I just can't. I have the CVO rims and no other sprocket would look good on them. I know performance and handling should be more important than looks but it looks so damn good i just couldn't do it.

 

Well hay don;t get me wrong, your guy might have done a really good job. I really can't lend any opinion without seeing the data- and my opinion is only an average one- I know some things but not at an expert level or over a very wide range. lol

you should have received an AFR graph underneath the dyno chart with the correct weighting- that is the only way your tuner could show you the fueling is spot on.

If you change injectors then yes you'll need to re-tune. But I would only do that if your data logs show you need it. Don;t change them just for the sake of it. I will say though that the SE larger injectors are easier to tune than the stock 3.9's - I always hit some lean spots in the mid to upper RPMS and load areas and had to overly set my AFR table richer to compensate. I don;t have that issue with my new SE 4.9 injectors. But my log data was showing me an issue so that is why I made the change. That and I may go larger on the engine build later (107 kit maybe much later), and if so, then I've got plenty of intake and injector overhead for growth.

Again - learn to datalog and read your logs. see the injector times and learn what they mean in terms of utilization. check your logged afr's and see if they are in line with your AFR table settings.

I'd still go back and ask for the AFR printout it should be in the dyno computer.


for your rear pulley- you should go to my sticky drive ratio thread and look up the posts by JimGnitecki - He also has the turbine CVO wheels and put on a sweet PM pulley that matches up nicely. he posted pics there too.

You can contact SMC and have them cut you a custom 70t pulley for the $300 range. that is not bad at all. www.southern-mc.com

I guarantee you- and you can take this to the bank- that you will get massively more performance benefit out of a 30/70 pulley upgrade than what you just did with tuning and cams. it will blow you away. no kidding. and no re-tuning needed. After that you can bump the spark advance up a bit in the off idle, roll on and wot areas and I can always give you a copy of my spark table to look at and use. or you can roll it back to your dyno guy and have him re-optimize the timing. it's not a requirement though.

 

I rarely put a AFR trace on the bottom of my sheets. I rarely read AFR with the sensor on the dyno jet. It is only a single line showing what AFR is in a very small portion of the calibration and it is only one cylinder. If your lines are smooth. It is a good sign you AFR, and spark is correct on both cylinders. A WOT sheet really doesn't tell you anything about how it really is tuned.


If you trust your tuner and believe he is legit. Relax and let him do his thing, how he does it. It sounds like he isn't begging for work.

 

i read that sticky all the time LA. didn't realize one got a sprocket for the CVO rims. I saw one guy like me that said he wouldn't change either. going to re-read right now. And i would pay $300 to get one made in a second!!!


thank for all the info. and sorry LA but yes you are a pro!!!!! trust me on that one.

 

Yes he is good Hardtail. And a good guy. i just wanted to question a few things because i don't want to look like an idiot asking him this stuff. LA doesn'y mind helping out idiots like myself....ha