Mods and warranty - the good!
#31
But beyond that -- this isn't just some standard Magnuson Moss issue. The issue is that the EPA is demanding the powertrain warranty be voided if the bike is tuned using a non-compliant tuner. Which means, effectively, that the bike is put into an illegal state. Magnuson Moss may not even apply in the slightest in this case, because Harley's warranty already says that if you put the bike into a state where it doesn't comply with the laws of the territory in which it's registered, then the warranty is voided. That's been in Harley's warranty for years. The difference is now the EPA and the courts are demanding that they actually do something about it. So Magnuson Moss has really pretty much nothing to do with it. You put illegal parts on (and catless headers and catless mufflers and non-EPA-compliant "competition-use-only" parts are all (say it with me) illegal to use on public roads, and yes your powertrain warranty gets voided. Harley also already has written in its warranty that using their bikes for racing is an automatic warranty disqualifier. So how does someone argue "I'm not racing it" when they use competition-only parts?
I tend to think that a class-action lawsuit would never gain even the slightest bit of traction.
If Harley was voiding powertrain warranties for people who were legally using street-legal parts that were EPA-compliant, then yes, there'd absolutely be grounds. But that's not what they're doing. They're voiding warranties for bikes that have been taken into an illegal state, illegal to operate on public highways. I tend to think that the ground under them, in this case, is pretty solid.
But as I stated in another post, if the entire warranty is to be voided, when a person brings in a brake issue, or any other issue that could cause an accident, and is told Warranty is voided, and then there is an accident big or small, well if they survive it, they and their lawyer will be very wealthy, god forbid, if they don’t survive it the family and their lawyer will be very wealthy.
I'm not saying anybody has to like it, I'm just saying that what they're doing is legal every which way. The ONLY grounds I could see for questioning anything about it, is that if you used a noncompliant tuner to tune your bike, but you specifically tuned it to an EPA-compatible state... in that case, one could say that the warranty shouldn't be voided. But who's going to do that? As a practical matter, absolutely nobody would do that. Ever. So -- assuming you're suing in a courtroom with a reasonable and competent judge, I'd predict that any class-action lawsuit about the enforcement of the warranty will be thrown out on its ear. You simply cannot demand that a company warranty a bike when you've modified it into a state where it's not even legal to operate it. Especially when their written warranty already says, clear as day:
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle which is not equipped to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
Furthermore, it specifically says:
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty.
Last edited by FatBob2018; 02-25-2018 at 01:21 PM.
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jd05flhtci (02-25-2018)
#32
http://www.dummies.com/home-garden/c...rranty-intact/
Further, under the act, aftermarket equipment that improves performance does not automatically void a vehicle manufacturer’s original warranty, unless the warranty clearly states the addition of aftermarket equipment automatically voids your vehicle’s warranty, or if it can be proven that the aftermarket device is the direct cause of the failure.
Exclusions
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle:
3. Which is not equipped to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson® parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley- Davidson® dealer for details.
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle:
3. Which is not equipped to comply with the laws of the market in which it is registered.
4. Which has off-road or competition parts installed to enhance performance, a trailer hitch, or has other unapproved modifications (even if these modifications include genuine Harley-Davidson® parts and accessories that are not approved for use on your motorcycle). These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty. See an authorized Harley- Davidson® dealer for details.
Lastly... If you are waiting for somebody to take HD on in a lawsuit over this stuff... You may have a long wait ahead of you.
Last edited by T^2; 02-25-2018 at 01:31 PM.
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FatBob2018 (02-25-2018)
#33
Well I am debating on what I will do while
Under warranty. Until then I will just sit back and wait to see the results of
The ineveitable class action law suit brought on and supported by precedent and a federal agency demanding that a business violate a federal act that states you cannot void a warranty unless you can prove the modification caused the failure.
And I am not arguing either way. But as I stated in another post, if the entire warranty is to be voided, when a person brings in a brake issue, or any other issue that could cause an accident, and is told Warranty is voided, and then there is an accident big or small, well if they survive it, they and their lawyer will be very wealthy, god forbid, if they don’t survive it the family and their lawyer will be very wealthy.
Under warranty. Until then I will just sit back and wait to see the results of
The ineveitable class action law suit brought on and supported by precedent and a federal agency demanding that a business violate a federal act that states you cannot void a warranty unless you can prove the modification caused the failure.
And I am not arguing either way. But as I stated in another post, if the entire warranty is to be voided, when a person brings in a brake issue, or any other issue that could cause an accident, and is told Warranty is voided, and then there is an accident big or small, well if they survive it, they and their lawyer will be very wealthy, god forbid, if they don’t survive it the family and their lawyer will be very wealthy.
#34
Maybe... Or maybe it's like what the text of the warranty says...
I don't note any reference to "powertrain warranty" anywhere in the Limited Warranty text. I do note that it says that other than the Harley Davidson Limited Warranty...
More Warranty quotes:
If you install a part that the manufacturer states is for off road or competition use only, then you're probably toast.
More warranty quotes FYI...
These modifications may void all or parts of your new motorcycle limited warranty.
THERE IS NO OTHER EXPRESSED WARRANTY (OTHER THAN THE SEPARATE EMISSIONS, NOISE AND RADIO LIMITED WARRANTIES) ON THE MOTORCYCLE
Exclusions
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle:
2. Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used “off the highway,” or used for racing or competition of any kind.
This limited warranty will not apply to any motorcycle:
2. Which has been abused, neglected, misused, improperly stored, used “off the highway,” or used for racing or competition of any kind.
More warranty quotes FYI...
Other Limitations
This warranty does not cover:
4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your
motorcycle.
5. Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson® components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson® dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson® part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, nonapproved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
6. United States customers: defects or damage impacting the functionality of powertrain components in a motorcycle that has been tuned using a tuner or calibration that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA.
This warranty does not cover:
4. Defects or damage to the motorcycle caused by alterations outside of Harley-Davidson factory specifications or caused by alterations or use of parts or accessories not approved for the make and model year of your
motorcycle.
5. Damage caused by installation or use of non-Harley-Davidson® components, even those installed by an authorized Harley-Davidson® dealership, that cause a Harley-Davidson® part to fail. Examples include, but are not limited to performance-enhancing powertrain components or software, exhaust systems, trailer hitches, nonapproved tires, lowering kits, handlebars, and add-ons connected to the factory electrical system.
6. United States customers: defects or damage impacting the functionality of powertrain components in a motorcycle that has been tuned using a tuner or calibration that was not covered by a California ARB Executive Order or otherwise approved by EPA.
#35
When you continue to read through it states it is a violation of the act to state that you must use only their service and their parts. So I guess it will be a wait and see what happens game.
As for someone taking in H-D, there are plenty of attorneys that if there is a wrongful death or injury claim that would run full force for a shot at that much money. Just ask PGE what happens when you do not act upon known consumer safety issues.
And I could be wrong. But You let a person take their bike it for a suspected issue, that isn’t created by a modification, have their warranty voided, and let that suspected problem cause injury or death, they will be lined up for a shot at that.
With all that being said, in the past, oh we will just use the last 10 years, average 10-12k a year riding, I haven’t had to make a major warranty claim. Matter of fact I have never had to crack the engine on one. So knock on wood it will continue to to be all good. That’s what I am going with anyway
As for someone taking in H-D, there are plenty of attorneys that if there is a wrongful death or injury claim that would run full force for a shot at that much money. Just ask PGE what happens when you do not act upon known consumer safety issues.
And I could be wrong. But You let a person take their bike it for a suspected issue, that isn’t created by a modification, have their warranty voided, and let that suspected problem cause injury or death, they will be lined up for a shot at that.
With all that being said, in the past, oh we will just use the last 10 years, average 10-12k a year riding, I haven’t had to make a major warranty claim. Matter of fact I have never had to crack the engine on one. So knock on wood it will continue to to be all good. That’s what I am going with anyway
Last edited by Mathews2; 02-25-2018 at 05:36 PM.
#36
#38
It doesn't have to even stay HD and SE. You can put on EPA-compliant parts and retain your warranty. Some S&S mufflers or exhaust, Arlen Ness Big Sucker, there are a few parts out there that are emissions compliant, either 49-state or 50-state legal, and carry a CARB certificate. But only a few. The vast majority of what I've seen out there is labeled "competition use only" or "not for street use".
So the safest bet is to stay HD/SE, but it's not a total requirement -- heck, if it was, that alone would probably violate the Magnuson Moss act...
So the summation is: keep it legal for 2 years, how hard is that...
So the safest bet is to stay HD/SE, but it's not a total requirement -- heck, if it was, that alone would probably violate the Magnuson Moss act...
So the summation is: keep it legal for 2 years, how hard is that...
Last edited by FatBob2018; 02-25-2018 at 06:51 PM.
#39
I bought a $28K bike. I'll do whatever the hell I want to it. If HD won't fix it if it breaks, I'll understand; they warned me. I'll just fix it myself and move on.
I've never understood why some people buy high-dollar toys but fret about warranty when it comes to modding. SMH
To quote Shia LaBeouf: "Just...DO IT!!"
I've never understood why some people buy high-dollar toys but fret about warranty when it comes to modding. SMH
To quote Shia LaBeouf: "Just...DO IT!!"
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