Hi All,

Maybe someone will help me with my dilemmas as I can't get any help from dealerships....

I now have on my bike - full Stage2 from SE: SE cam 462, adjustable SE pushrods, oval SE air filter, OEM headers and a slip-on SE Titanium mufflers + all the other stuff like SE phat spark cables etc. I like how it rides overall, could have less heat on the right thigh and maybe a bit more nice sound and power. The bike also has a Don Performance map https://don-performance.com/en/

Hence - I purchased Khrome Werks Hideaway Headers (not yet installed, wonder if they'd work well with SE titanium mufflers or should I get KW headers as well...) and...here the story begins

I am aiming at little improvements + longevity + less heat from headers + flexibility of the engine and overall ride. I ride mainly long distance touring (500 km + / day), but I also like overall city riding and I like dynamic riding too.

- NOW -

Minding the above - I also want to do: oil pump, cam plate, lifters (mainly because I want less heat and more reliability long term), I hear OEM HD lifters go **** ca approx 30k km (my bike has 22k km now). Also some other parts which I hear can break / crack because they are plastic - like intake manifold, oil control valve, heads breathers etc. Naturally - I'd think to go with one system and I wouldn't mind doing SE again (they have SE cam plate, oil pump, lifters...but not everything).

The dealer of course advises go full SE - they have cam plate, oil pump, lifters (tappets) etc.

- BUT -

for instance little things like lifters cuffs in SE they do not have them, or I cannot find.

- AND - both Feuling and S&S they do full kits - cam, plate, pump, lifters + all these little things like lifter cuffs etc. alu billet etc.
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So now came the idea - to swap it all for either S&S or Feuling, but dealership strongly advises against it (SE is HD, no problems with quality etc.)

- SO -

I found on internet two interesting options and found full kits with: cam plate, oil pump, lifters, lifter cuffs, head breathers etc.:

---> Feuling 472 cam or S&S 465C / 475C <-----

I worry to do it though as HD dealer says:

•⁠ ⁠aftermarket cause many problems you do not know the quality or they're too aggressive etc., they have a lot of blown engines etc due to aftermarket parts
•⁠ ⁠⁠lifter cuffs, manifold OEM etc do not break it's bullshit or from older bikes etc. no need to change it

BUT SHALL I DO IT:

- which of the above is best for me and say - similar to SE 462? I do not want to loose power or have the bike run worse...I read 465C would be the best...but not sure...

- OR -

•⁠ ⁠I also think of going full Stage3 into 121/124 cu and there again I can do full S&S kit or SE, but I worry about heat, fuel consumption (range mainly), **** fuel resistance etc.?

The bike as it runs now IS FINE and I like it. I want longevity and bit less heat and maybe a bit more good sound and power.

About the don map - I am also thinking to change the tune to PV4 or even Thundermax, but of course I do not want to mess with a lot of details in it. So - is it a good idea for someone who prefers riding over tuning it and does not find it too interesting to play with it? On the other hand, staying with don map - means each time I do something I have to go through that dealer which is HD dealer and it's hard to get some other parts installed, as it seems - or they may have less experience with aftermarket.

All that is my dilemmas and anxiety and doesn't let me sleep recently, to the extent I had a nightmare that I drove a Chinese electric car and it didn't brake unless put on a reverse gear )

 

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention the year/model of your bike. That could matter to some of the changes mentioned below..

The following assessments are all IMHO...

Most models through 2025, still used the Harley "C" lifters. The "C" lifters are considered by many to be subpar, and some consider calling them "subpar" being kind to their reputation... If I am going into the cam chest, I always replace the "C" lifters with good aftermarket lifters. In the USA, I use Hylift-Johnson lifters from WFO Larry (Larry's Motorcycle & Machine, in Oak Lawn, Illinois). I don't know if you can easily order from the US. If not, I would go with S&S or Fueling lifters. I don't make a special trip into the cam chest just to change the lifters. It's a "while you are in the cam chest" change.

Your bike most likely uses an INA brand, cage-style, inner cam bearing. It will use the size B168. The earlier versions of this cage-style bearing in the B148 size had issues in the Twin Cam engines. Since they changed to the B168 size, there have not been a lot of reports of failures. But since the early failures, many will switch the INA brand cage-style inner cam bearing with a better Koyo brand captive needle bearing. However, I don't make a special trip into the cam chest just to change the inner cam bearing. It's a "while you are in the cam chest" change.

I believe your OEM lifter cuffs are just fine as is.... Many jumped on the bandwagon to change them when the M8s first came out. They saw a "plastic" part in the engine. Billet lifter cuffs were the pre-ordained favorite replacements. Funny thing, over time, including some big displacement and high power builds, there just weren't many, if any, reports of issues from the OEM lifter cuffs. Fueling even has a video explaining that they originally made billet lifter cuff replacements, but changed their minds and their course, believing billet lifter cuffs had issues of their own. They now make lifter cuffs out of "glass filled nylon with Teflon" which are more like OEM than the other billet replacements.

Since the introduction of the 8-lobe gerotor oil pump by Harley, the instances of sumping have been dramatically reduced. I wouldn't hesitate to leave the OEM cam plate and oil pump in place, if you have an engine built after 5/22/19 when the 8-lobe oil pump was put into production.

I have heard the stories of the intake manifold failures. I live in the Southwest USA, ride my bikes all year, and will ride in over 100° temps in the summer. I am contemplating changing out my old OEM intake for a new one, but haven't pulled the trigger yet. While I don't see the roads lined with M8 bikes broken down with intake issues, I am seriously leaning towards that change for a preventative maintenance move.


In your case, I would start with adding the catless head pipe to your bike, and having it professionally dyno tuned, by a reputable dyno tuner shop. You can also change out the intake manifold before the dyno tune.

I believe that will put you on the road to a well running and reliable motorcycle.

If it should happen that in the future you develop "noises" from your valve train or cam chest, or your bike has higher mileage, say 50K+ miles, then I would open up then cam chest, give it a good inspection, and make sure it goes back together replacing any worn parts, but certainly with new Koyo inner cam bearings and good aftermarket lifters..

Good luck with your decisions and your modifications...

 

I thought if I put it in the title noone will miss it /) no sarcasm here

It's FLHXST 2022

 

So, OEM lifters will be fine until 50k km or so..? And you'd not touch anything before that?

The main reason to go into the cam was for me - that I'd need to do lifers anyway and I read they might go bad anywhere between 20-30k km (km, not miles).

If that's not so - I'd rather ride with the current setup, just swap the headers for catless and keep the money for suspension and brakes and then when I get closer to 50k km - I'd go with the full cam chest job incl maybe a new cam (765/472 feuling) of maybe even a 121/124 upgrade.

You think that'd be a good idea? I just don't want to get the engine blown because of stupid lifters if they really are to be obligatory replaced between 20-30k km (or so it would be 17-25k miles or so).

 

it's the luck of the draw..same lifters were in my 2020 RGS as my 2024 RG ... when I traded my 2020 in with 75,000 trouble free miles (original lifters) they sounded as quiet as when new, no signs of going bad. The 2024 had a lifter failure at ~19XXX miles that destroyed the engine which HD replaced under warranty. So...



edit: interestingly enough, HD discontinued those 99C lifters across their entire Softail and Touring model lineup and replaced them with more expensive high capacity lifters for the 2026 models..that may be telling us something as they don't make changes just for something to do, and certainly not to upgrade to more expensive higher quality parts for no good reasons..it's possible my catastrophic lifter failure wasn't the only warranty claim lately

 

No way to check which ones I have, without opening the cam chest, right? And if already open - no point to just have a look, better replace, am I thinking right?

 

OEMs for your bike were the 99C, but I see you have "I now have on my bike - full Stage2 from SE: SE cam 462, adjustable SE pushrods," which means you have either OEM or these were put in with the 462 cam

https://www.harley-davidson.com/us/e...ets/p/18572-13

they are now included with the HD SE Stage 2 kits but weren't previously .. it's common practice to replace them when going in there if they have a certain amount of miles on them, but you never know if the current ones can go 100,000 miles or the new ones have a bad one, ticking time bomb

 

The Hideaway headpipe works very well with those mufflers. If you want a bit more sound/power, remove the decibel reducers.( i use those mufflers on a BB RG)
Of the parts you have listed, I would choose the stock pump/plate, SE adjustable pushrods, Hylift-Johnson 2313SE lifters, and an Andrews 465B cam. That cam will make a better overall curve and is easy on the drive train

 

Thanks mate! Everyone's saying there's something out there about the lifters, noone about the head breathers - would they need to be installed or nope...all these questions from a non tech guy who just knows how to ride and not much about how this all is being done

 

Stock head breathers are adequate for a stock bore/stock stroke engine. I like the Fueling breathers or TMan setup on big bore hi horsepower applications.