DYNOJET: Dyno tuning a bike with Target Tune installed
#11
So if using TT, then presumably the whole tune is done with the WB's. Any issues/implications with that?
#12
You can do this, but as a dyno tuner you should know that having short term/long term multiplers running at large delta's is not the same as having VE properly established. To get fuel delivery as accurate as possible you want to get VE itself as close as possible so closed loop (both short term/long term) has to do the least amount of work. If VE is not that close and needs to be sync'd that is what the TT-Auto Tune application does, this app operates in an open loop state.
I would really like to get a product in your hands so you can see what it does or does not do first hand, and every statement should not merit an attack or condescending response. If you want help on how these products work I have offered several times to show you.
For reference I have attached a customer supplied log from a Target Tune equipped bike, you can open this log in Dynojet Power Core or other 3rd party software. If you refer to CLI (short term fuel trim) and AFF (long term fuel trim) you can see that they are running and active, they are for the most averaging in the area of +/- 5% for both of them with a few areas a bit more. You can also note the running AF in the log from the widebands (WBO2 front & rear) as well as the AF targets.
I would really like to get a product in your hands so you can see what it does or does not do first hand, and every statement should not merit an attack or condescending response. If you want help on how these products work I have offered several times to show you.
For reference I have attached a customer supplied log from a Target Tune equipped bike, you can open this log in Dynojet Power Core or other 3rd party software. If you refer to CLI (short term fuel trim) and AFF (long term fuel trim) you can see that they are running and active, they are for the most averaging in the area of +/- 5% for both of them with a few areas a bit more. You can also note the running AF in the log from the widebands (WBO2 front & rear) as well as the AF targets.
#13
Why you're at it... You wouldn't happen to have some VE table delta comparisons between VE tables that were first calibrated with "auto tune" and the results after the same bike was dyno tuned? It would be interesting to see (actual concrete evidence) how well "auto tune" does it's job calibrating the VE tables.
__________________
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
Jamie Long / Fuel Moto USA
The USA's Leader V-Twin EFI & Performance www.fuelmotousa.com
Contact 920-423-3309
Email jamie@fuelmotousa.com
#14
No reason to use a different set of sensors to tune a TT equipped bike. Especially considering these are the sensors that are going to be driving closed loop when the tune is finished.
I don't have specific examples however if you are using the same sensors, same data sets, and the same application for generating VE corrections they are going to be close. The only difference is going to be how the data is collected. On the street you have the advantage of collecting data in the actual conditions you are running in, however you are somewhat limited in operating range as you need to stay within limitations and there are simply some areas that are difficult (if not possible) to get to in the tune. On the other hand with a load control dyno you have much more control over the operating range, you can get to area's of the tune that you cannot on the street, and you can also keep conditions such as engine temps under control. Also consider VE is only one aspect of the tune, while this is extremely important there are an assortment of other tables related to fuel & timing that are attended to with a proper dyno tune, this needs to be considered when street tuning, you really rely on the accuracy of the other tables. On the dyno for tuning VE we historically use the Auto Tune application while running PV logs at the same time, we then export the tune corrections & logs in WinPv and Power Core, generate updated VE tables, the retest until they are where we want them. As of recently for CANbus bikes the Tune Lab feature in Power Core now has the ability to view a live histogram right in the dyno software while you are tuning and you can generate tune corrections using either stock O2 sensors, wideband sensors, or a combination of both.
I don't have specific examples however if you are using the same sensors, same data sets, and the same application for generating VE corrections they are going to be close. The only difference is going to be how the data is collected. On the street you have the advantage of collecting data in the actual conditions you are running in, however you are somewhat limited in operating range as you need to stay within limitations and there are simply some areas that are difficult (if not possible) to get to in the tune. On the other hand with a load control dyno you have much more control over the operating range, you can get to area's of the tune that you cannot on the street, and you can also keep conditions such as engine temps under control. Also consider VE is only one aspect of the tune, while this is extremely important there are an assortment of other tables related to fuel & timing that are attended to with a proper dyno tune, this needs to be considered when street tuning, you really rely on the accuracy of the other tables. On the dyno for tuning VE we historically use the Auto Tune application while running PV logs at the same time, we then export the tune corrections & logs in WinPv and Power Core, generate updated VE tables, the retest until they are where we want them. As of recently for CANbus bikes the Tune Lab feature in Power Core now has the ability to view a live histogram right in the dyno software while you are tuning and you can generate tune corrections using either stock O2 sensors, wideband sensors, or a combination of both.
Presents another question... How do you see the slower response times etc. of the WB's factoring in trying to calibrate VE tables on the streets? You can hold the bike in cells long enough with the dyno to mitigate that. No? Might be a little tougher proposition trying to do that on the streets. Do you see better auto tune results (done on the street) with NB vs. WB's?
Last edited by T^2; 02-22-2018 at 06:59 PM.
#15
So if my dyno guy has a 250i, we can hook up directly to my power vision/target tune, but only if he has a newer DynoWare RT (DWRT) box and is running the newer Power Core software (and proper cabling)? Since my guy has an older 250i, I'm assuming he still uses older software. I would obviously rather use my Target Tune's widebands, vs his sniffer, since that's what will stay on the bike. If we can't hook into my sensors, would we just disable the open loop in the PV map and tune like a conventional Power Vision setup? Then once it's dialed in, turn the closed loop back on for normal riding?
I was there a couple years ago when he was tuning a bike with a Power Vision, but I think he just had it plugged into the dyno's laptop to do the spark and ve changes. I know he had a (normal dynojet vacuum pump) sniffer in the tailpipe.
I was there a couple years ago when he was tuning a bike with a Power Vision, but I think he just had it plugged into the dyno's laptop to do the spark and ve changes. I know he had a (normal dynojet vacuum pump) sniffer in the tailpipe.
#16
#17
The importance of centering the trims in the VE tables is there no matter what sensors, or if it is being tuned on the road or a dyno. The strategy is going to be the same because it is still all based on the underlying code in the ECM and how the long term and short term trims work.
I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.
Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.
I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.
Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.
#18
So if my dyno guy has a 250i, we can hook up directly to my power vision/target tune, but only if he has a newer DynoWare RT (DWRT) box and is running the newer Power Core software (and proper cabling)? Since my guy has an older 250i, I'm assuming he still uses older software. I would obviously rather use my Target Tune's widebands, vs his sniffer, since that's what will stay on the bike. If we can't hook into my sensors, would we just disable the open loop in the PV map and tune like a conventional Power Vision setup? Then once it's dialed in, turn the closed loop back on for normal riding?
I was there a couple years ago when he was tuning a bike with a Power Vision, but I think he just had it plugged into the dyno's laptop to do the spark and ve changes. I know he had a (normal dynojet vacuum pump) sniffer in the tailpipe.
I was there a couple years ago when he was tuning a bike with a Power Vision, but I think he just had it plugged into the dyno's laptop to do the spark and ve changes. I know he had a (normal dynojet vacuum pump) sniffer in the tailpipe.
If so, that’s all that you are looking for, right? The fact he uses older equipment and software will not prevent him from providing a great running bike.
Equipment and software can only be as good as the operator. No equipment, even the latest, greatest can eliminate the need for experience and knowledge of how an why EFI works.
Bob
The following users liked this post:
Eccool (05-17-2018)
#19
hrdtail78
The importance of centering the trims in the VE tables is there no matter what sensors, or if it is being tuned on the road or a dyno. The strategy is going to be the same because it is still all based on the underlying code in the ECM and how the long term and short term trims work.
I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.
Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.
Man it took SC forever to tell you how to reply...I'm kidding, I'm kidding!!!
The importance of centering the trims in the VE tables is there no matter what sensors, or if it is being tuned on the road or a dyno. The strategy is going to be the same because it is still all based on the underlying code in the ECM and how the long term and short term trims work.
I also 100% agree with Jamie. The ECM is going to win and it is important to center those trims with the strategy and sensors that are giving the feedback during normal riding. Something TT or pro tune form vision does not allow you to do. To center trims with TT. You must not have it in TT mode. Which uses the wide bands in place of the narrow bands and uses the same strategy. Instead you put it in something more like pro tune and targeting a constant AFR. Even if you use pro tune to center the VE tables. (Which most pro tuners don't even use.) You still run a couple of VE centering runs with your narrow bands before releasing the bike. With TT. You get it close and hopefully TT from fine tunes it while you have the ECM in TT mode. All while collecting wide band data at 4 frames a second and the controllers just repeating last good data recorded. Unlike narrow bands that record data for every firing cycle.
Remember. This system of using WB was made to rough in a calibration when there was not good starting calibration, and it was always the plan to finish the calibration using a different means. It was never made to control the closed loop portion of the ECM and run the bike on 4.2's. Nothing out there runs any closed loop feed back system with those. The don't have the speed, accuracy or can they keep the pumping cell clean enough for long term use. The auto world has moved to 4.9's what 10-12 years ago. Here in the HD world people are still trying to push a 20 year old developers code with low tech sensors as something cutting edge. Sellers market if you are a carpet bagger.
Man it took SC forever to tell you how to reply...I'm kidding, I'm kidding!!!
Last edited by Slyde; 05-14-2018 at 05:13 PM.
#20
Curious, does this guy have a good reputation heard around the area? Are there folks raving about how good their bikes run after he tunes them?
If so, that’s all that you are looking for, right? The fact he uses older equipment and software will not prevent him from providing a great running bike.
Equipment and software can only be as good as the operator. No equipment, even the latest, greatest can eliminate the need for experience and knowledge of how an why EFI works.
Bob