That was my understanding in the 1st place. I figured i have a PC3 so I'd just use that.
My indy guy is an experienced "dr" here in so cal - nice,friendly, & knowledgable...
His words...." You don't need a PC3, PC5, thundermax, etc.., I bypass your PC3 and program your bike's computer directly with TTS, fine tune with a dyno and you're good to go." He said I can keep/use the PC3 if I want but it's NOT NEEDED. $400 out the door (little extra to an o2 sensors for dyno then plug 'em)

Has anyone out there had their bike TTS tuned with a dyno WITHOUT purchasing a fuel management device?

So you're saying you're not currently using a FMS or you're now using the TTS FMS?

 

Price just seems too good to be true. At minimum, he's got $300 invested in the TTS box that would now be locked to your bike (assume the dual bike box for $600). That only leaves $100 for a dyno tune. Seems real cheap to me.

 

If you haven't already, you need to take a look at the MasterTune site, especially the Manual for the Mastertune system....it may be more than you want to know, but it will tell you exactly what the program is about and the basics for tuning the system by riding your bike.

http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuni...Guide-v133.pdf


These are essentially the same steps a guy with a dyno will do, but he has a lot more control over the load that the engine will see (and, hence, the quality of the data that he gathers) with the bike on the dyno.

A TTS system consists of an interface cable that plugs to your ECM, an interface module that translates commands from your PC to the ECM, a USB cable to plug to a computer, and a suite of software that is used to do the process.

You must have the interface device in order to do this tuning...whether on a dyno or by riding your cycle. Each device winds up locking to your particular bike's VIN as recorded on the ECM. Therefore, you have to buy this system for your specific bike.

You connect the system to your bike to:
1) download your current ECM map and save it for future use/backup
2) Flash a rough ECM map from Mastertune to your bike to overwrite the factory map
3) Record a bunch of performance data from the bike as it is run under various loads on a dyno.
4) Analyze the data using the software and make modifications to improve the ECM map
5) Repeat steps 3 and 4 several times to better fine tune the ECM map
6) Flash a final version of your dyno tuned ECM map on to your bike
7) save a backup copy of this map in case you need it later.

Once your Dyno guy is done, he will disconnect the system and you will put it away in a drawer in your garage and never touch it again unless you need to reload the saved map onto your ECM or if you want to make changes to the map to focus on power or mileage or whatever. Since your ECM map itself is changed, you never need another device to handle the fuel system.

I did the TTS self tuning while riding my cycle...it was fairly straigthforward. At some point, i will take it in for a dyno as it needs some refinement that I was not able to give it in my test rides. I'm still a touch rich under heavy loads and get a bang when I let off the throttle fast after jamming on it.

 

That is correct. No device hooked to the bike other than the stock ECM . He used flash tuner (formerly direct link) 250 for the key and 400 for the tune.Great power and gas mileage..

 

The TTS IS a fuel management device.

Your Indy will remove your PCIII from the bike (to be stored on a shelf in your garage, or sold). He will sell you a TTS and use that to flash your ECM and dynotune your bike. The TTS is them removed from the bike and your store it until needed again (more upgrades)

 

My bike was tuned on a dyno with the TTS. No other FMS involved.

 

If you don't min me asking how much did that cost you?

Thanks for the info, a lot to go over but informative.
Going to indy for further clarification - will update.

 

I can see how this is getting confusing. I think there is an overlap of info .... Dowloading a map to an onboard piggyback is not the same as re- flashing your ECM with a removable
device. My bike is now tuned with TTS and requires no onboard device to provide constant info to the ECM.
Hope im helping
SC

 

Really? More than Power Vision? Could you list one or more of these unique capabilities? Why is it superior to SEPST or PV when all three basically do the same thing, which is to alter the tables within the ECM?

I just love these tuner threads.

 

There's a lot of hype and often religious fervor that surrounds tuner threads, so I would pause, absorb what you have learned here, gather more info from local tuners, then call Fuel Moto for further consultation. After that I believe you can make a thoughtful decision on your tuner issues, if you indeed have any.

You can tune the bike well with the PCIII if you can find a tuner that is willing to tune with it, and that shouldn't be difficult to accomplish. Sure, you don't need the PCIII, but you already have it--and if you go with his recommendation you'll be out the $250 (or whatever) you spent on the PCIII, plus another $400 for TTS, and yet another $400 or thereabouts for a dyno tune. The one mitigating variable here is that you can sell the PCIII, probably for about half retail and recoup some of you expenditure on that device, if you should decide to ditch it. I wouldn't do that just yet, as I believe if you have a good tuning device already you should stick with it unless there is a very good reason to go with something else.

OTOH, with your existing setup all you really need is a good map for the PCIII, either from a dyno tune or from a reputable outfit like Fuel Moto. From whom was the PCIII purchased? You may have trouble finding an existing PCIII map for your bike with Andrews 21 cams installed, but you could use a PCV map if you remove the 15% TP column from the Fuel Adj. tables (PCIII has none).

As has been already said, TTS and all other tuners mentioned in this thread are FMD's. You must have some sort of aftermarket tuning device (PCIII, PCV, T'Max, TTS, SEPST, SERT, PV, etc.) to tune a Harley, and you can get a good tune with any one of them! Remember that emphasis when someone tells you you must have one tuning device or another to get a good tune. That's pure baloney unless it is uttered by a human tuner who wants to sell you another tuner and/or doesn't want or have the ability to tune with something else.

Again, TTS is a fuel-management device, called "flash-based" since it flashes the ECM with a tune, although it is mostly a software product. The PC (PCIII or PCV) is a physical "piggyback" device that works between the ECM and the injectors and coil. It stores the file inside the PC and works from that to intercept the data coming from the ECM. This process is transparent and invisible to the ECM, which although is a different approach from the flash-based philosophy it works very well.

I would fall-back and regroup on this decision, as I'm not sure you're getting good info from your local sources. The tuner you spoke with seems to be saying you must have TTS to tune, but unless he refuses to use anything else this isn't true. Further, if you go with TTS you're out another $800 unless you can create a miracle by finding an existing TTS tune for a bike like yours. I wouldn't bet 5¢ on that possibility, as stock TTS tunes are few and far between. You would have much better luck finding one for the PCIII.