ThunderMax, PC III-USB, SERT
Tourer
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 340
Likes: 0
From: Ft Lauderdale, FL
RE: ThunderMax, PC III-USB, SERT
ORIGINAL: Spanish Flyer
Hi guys,
Let's see if wisdom and experience maketheir way to this message.... in the mean time, I´m sure there are many around with 07's and 08's with the Race Tuner in their wardrobe or in a box in the garage.... maybe they'd care to take a look at their bikes and see if the O2 sensors are still connected or by-passed.... It would give us a hint.
Hi guys,
Let's see if wisdom and experience maketheir way to this message.... in the mean time, I´m sure there are many around with 07's and 08's with the Race Tuner in their wardrobe or in a box in the garage.... maybe they'd care to take a look at their bikes and see if the O2 sensors are still connected or by-passed.... It would give us a hint.
The O2 sensors remain connected with SERT. Only with the
PC III are they disconnected.
Thread Starter
|
Tourer
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
From:
RE: ThunderMax, PC III-USB, SERT
Thanks Mudpuddle,
The data you produced is clarifying, and makes sense, but I'm still not sure how the SERT works; it actually looks like it allows the engine to run in an open loop most of the time and it only runs closed loop when the engine is over 14 to 1, closer to 14.3 to one; that would mean that the SERT works almost like a PC III-usb, since for most of the bikers riding, you are either accelerating or in a load situation where the engine needs more fuel thus the O2 sensors are removed from the equation.
I now believe I did the right choice when I purchased the TMax with the autotune and the wide band sensors. Still, only tme will tell, but the delivery of both the Rineharts and the TMax is just a couple of days from now.
Thanks to all who answered and of course I will keep you informed on how the bike runs. To tell you the truth, I'm a bit scared on how loud the Rineharts will be; they could end-up being a bit too much for me and my neighbours.
Spanish Flyer
The data you produced is clarifying, and makes sense, but I'm still not sure how the SERT works; it actually looks like it allows the engine to run in an open loop most of the time and it only runs closed loop when the engine is over 14 to 1, closer to 14.3 to one; that would mean that the SERT works almost like a PC III-usb, since for most of the bikers riding, you are either accelerating or in a load situation where the engine needs more fuel thus the O2 sensors are removed from the equation.
I now believe I did the right choice when I purchased the TMax with the autotune and the wide band sensors. Still, only tme will tell, but the delivery of both the Rineharts and the TMax is just a couple of days from now.
Thanks to all who answered and of course I will keep you informed on how the bike runs. To tell you the truth, I'm a bit scared on how loud the Rineharts will be; they could end-up being a bit too much for me and my neighbours.
Spanish Flyer
Novice
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: W.Kentucky
OK Ive read this entire thread...I have a 2012 SuperGlide Custom and I want to change to V & H Big Radius exhaust...What the best choice for a do it yourselfer that wont harm the bike and that I can get the best results from a tuner..Fuelpak, thundermax, or what?
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 48
From: Ogden, UT
Here is a comparison of tuners and some explanation.
Personally the TMax is the best way to go, unless you just enjoy paying someone to dyno tune your bike.
tune maximum throttle openings and rpm.
Personally the TMax is the best way to go, unless you just enjoy paying someone to dyno tune your bike.
INDEX FOR EFI TUNER COMPARISON CHART
Types Of EFI Tuners
O2 Offset:
These are voltage dividers that connect in series with the factory sensors and
richen the mixture. Pulse Stretch: This is when the injectors are held open for an additional
proportional (P) time to increase fuel delivery.
richen the mixture. Pulse Stretch: This is when the injectors are held open for an additional
proportional (P) time to increase fuel delivery.
Indirect:
Intercepts and modifies inputs to the ECM, like the manifold pressure or throttle
position (TPS) sensors, to affect the ECM’s outputs.
position (TPS) sensors, to affect the ECM’s outputs.
Map:
Uses tables of rpm and throttle position or manifold pressure to directly set or offset
injector pulse width and ignition advance in each table location or cell.
injector pulse width and ignition advance in each table location or cell.
Auto-tune:
Uses feedback from O2 sensors in the exhaust system to automatically adjust
the AFR. Map-style tuners use target AFR tables.
the AFR. Map-style tuners use target AFR tables.
Application
Mild:
Best for applications without performance cam changes. These tuners run out of
adjustment range or resolution for the rapid AFR changes and front/rear cylinder differences
that high-performance cams typically cause.
adjustment range or resolution for the rapid AFR changes and front/rear cylinder differences
that high-performance cams typically cause.
Any:
Mild to wild, these tuners, all map style, can be used to compensate for almost any
extreme of AFR requirements.
extreme of AFR requirements.
Individual Cylinder:
Does the tuner allow independent adjustment of each cylinder?
Ignition:
All the tuners adjust fuel, but do they also allow specific adjustment of ignition
timing?
timing?
Idle and Cruise:
With closed-loop systems, does the tuner allow tuning in the closed-loop
areas? A Y has emission regulation implications. Some require additional purchase of O2
sensor eliminators.
areas? A Y has emission regulation implications. Some require additional purchase of O2
sensor eliminators.
Acceleration & Top End:
With closed-loop systems, does the tuner allow tuning in the
open-loop areas? Open loop is accelerator “pump” (especially off-idle) and above threequarter
throttle or three-quarter maximum rpm.
open-loop areas? Open loop is accelerator “pump” (especially off-idle) and above threequarter
throttle or three-quarter maximum rpm.
Throttle Bands:
For map-style tuners, the number of different percentages of throttle
opening columns from 0 to 100 percent in the fuel and ignition tables. Lower number of
bands reduces dyno tuning time. N = is for indirect tuners, rpm resolution is not user
identifiable.
opening columns from 0 to 100 percent in the fuel and ignition tables. Lower number of
bands reduces dyno tuning time. N = is for indirect tuners, rpm resolution is not user
identifiable.
RPM Resolution:
The width of separately tunable rpm bands. BB is what I call broad brush.
For instance, the Fi2000 has one-rpm breakpoint creating two-rpm bands; the Techlusion
two breakpoints, three bands. N means indirect tuners; rpm resolution is not user
identifiable. The designation 250, 500 means user selectable rpm bands, while 250/500
means 500-rpm bands above 3000 rpm. Using the widest effective band reduces dyno
tuning time.
For instance, the Fi2000 has one-rpm breakpoint creating two-rpm bands; the Techlusion
two breakpoints, three bands. N means indirect tuners; rpm resolution is not user
identifiable. The designation 250, 500 means user selectable rpm bands, while 250/500
means 500-rpm bands above 3000 rpm. Using the widest effective band reduces dyno
tuning time.
Connections:
Where the tuner connects into the system.
Installation Complexity (1-5):
This includes the time for an owner to install the unit on
his bike, to set in a base tune, and, in the case of the auto-tuners, to make adjustments
later. Requiring the use of a computer adds one point.
his bike, to set in a base tune, and, in the case of the auto-tuners, to make adjustments
later. Requiring the use of a computer adds one point.
Dyno Tuning:
The effectiveness on any of these products can be checked on a dyno using
idle, cruise, full throttle, and decel pop tests. A number in this column is an estimate in
hours of the time it takes a skilled operator to perform a tune of both cylinders over the full
range of rpm and throttle openings on a dyno equipped with dual AFR sensors. A U means
the device is unadjustable. An N means the manufacturer does not provide the information
needed to effectively adjust the product on a dyno. An M means a dyno is the safest way to
idle, cruise, full throttle, and decel pop tests. A number in this column is an estimate in
hours of the time it takes a skilled operator to perform a tune of both cylinders over the full
range of rpm and throttle openings on a dyno equipped with dual AFR sensors. A U means
the device is unadjustable. An N means the manufacturer does not provide the information
needed to effectively adjust the product on a dyno. An M means a dyno is the safest way to
tune maximum throttle openings and rpm.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 6,642
Likes: 48
From: Ogden, UT
Sorry, I do not, I found that a while back and i think it was from an American Iron Magazine article.
Novice
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: W.Kentucky
Here is a comparison of tuners and some explanation.
Personally the TMax is the best way to go, unless you just enjoy paying someone to dyno tune your bike.
Attachment 256104
O2 Offset:
Personally the TMax is the best way to go, unless you just enjoy paying someone to dyno tune your bike.
Attachment 256104
INDEX FOR EFI TUNER COMPARISON CHART
Types Of EFI Tuners
Types Of EFI Tuners
O2 Offset:
These are voltage dividers that connect in series with the factory sensors and
richen the mixture. Pulse Stretch: This is when the injectors are held open for an additional
proportional (P) time to increase fuel delivery.
proportional (P) time to increase fuel delivery.
Indirect:
Intercepts and modifies inputs to the ECM, like the manifold pressure or throttle
position (TPS) sensors, to affect the ECM’s outputs.
Map:
Uses tables of rpm and throttle position or manifold pressure to directly set or offset
injector pulse width and ignition advance in each table location or cell.
Auto-tune:
Uses feedback from O2 sensors in the exhaust system to automatically adjust
the AFR. Map-style tuners use target AFR tables.
Application
Mild:
Mild:
Best for applications without performance cam changes. These tuners run out of
adjustment range or resolution for the rapid AFR changes and front/rear cylinder differences
that high-performance cams typically cause.
that high-performance cams typically cause.
Any:
Mild to wild, these tuners, all map style, can be used to compensate for almost any
extreme of AFR requirements.
Individual Cylinder:
Does the tuner allow independent adjustment of each cylinder?
Ignition:
All the tuners adjust fuel, but do they also allow specific adjustment of ignition
timing?
Idle and Cruise:
With closed-loop systems, does the tuner allow tuning in the closed-loop
areas? A Y has emission regulation implications. Some require additional purchase of O2
sensor eliminators.
sensor eliminators.
Acceleration & Top End:
With closed-loop systems, does the tuner allow tuning in the
open-loop areas? Open loop is accelerator “pump” (especially off-idle) and above threequarter
throttle or three-quarter maximum rpm.
throttle or three-quarter maximum rpm.
Throttle Bands:
For map-style tuners, the number of different percentages of throttle
opening columns from 0 to 100 percent in the fuel and ignition tables. Lower number of
bands reduces dyno tuning time. N = is for indirect tuners, rpm resolution is not user
identifiable.
bands reduces dyno tuning time. N = is for indirect tuners, rpm resolution is not user
identifiable.
RPM Resolution:
The width of separately tunable rpm bands. BB is what I call broad brush.
For instance, the Fi2000 has one-rpm breakpoint creating two-rpm bands; the Techlusion
two breakpoints, three bands. N means indirect tuners; rpm resolution is not user
identifiable. The designation 250, 500 means user selectable rpm bands, while 250/500
means 500-rpm bands above 3000 rpm. Using the widest effective band reduces dyno
tuning time.
two breakpoints, three bands. N means indirect tuners; rpm resolution is not user
identifiable. The designation 250, 500 means user selectable rpm bands, while 250/500
means 500-rpm bands above 3000 rpm. Using the widest effective band reduces dyno
tuning time.
Connections:
Where the tuner connects into the system.
Installation Complexity (1-5):
This includes the time for an owner to install the unit on
his bike, to set in a base tune, and, in the case of the auto-tuners, to make adjustments
later. Requiring the use of a computer adds one point.
later. Requiring the use of a computer adds one point.
Dyno Tuning:
The effectiveness on any of these products can be checked on a dyno using
idle, cruise, full throttle, and decel pop tests. A number in this column is an estimate in
hours of the time it takes a skilled operator to perform a tune of both cylinders over the full
range of rpm and throttle openings on a dyno equipped with dual AFR sensors. A U means
the device is unadjustable. An N means the manufacturer does not provide the information
needed to effectively adjust the product on a dyno. An M means a dyno is the safest way to
tune maximum throttle openings and rpm.hours of the time it takes a skilled operator to perform a tune of both cylinders over the full
range of rpm and throttle openings on a dyno equipped with dual AFR sensors. A U means
the device is unadjustable. An N means the manufacturer does not provide the information
needed to effectively adjust the product on a dyno. An M means a dyno is the safest way to
Thanks for the great info...My local Drag Specialties dealer suggested the T-Max also...Do you think the T-Max with Auto Tune would be the best way to go?...From the research that I've done, seems like it would eliminate a lot of trial and error.....Thanks again for the reply...
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
Not sure if they've introduced a version for the 2012 model year Dynas just yet ... they changed the electronics onboard significantly from the '11 and earlier models ...
You would have to check compatibility with your '12 FXDC ...
You would have to check compatibility with your '12 FXDC ...
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Tourer
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 290
Likes: 2
From: wayland ny
If I understand what i've been told about fuel injection I THINK this is how the sert works your bike spends a lot of time in open loop. I.E. when it's idling, when you put the hammer down. The only time it's in closed loop is when your cruzing down the road at a steady rpm. When you make changes to the motor like mufflers, A/C, big bores, strokers, cam's you have increased the air flow threw the motor but im sure you all know this. Being as the ecm in open loop mode only looks at the throttle position sensor and rpm's, it says ok at this rpm and this throttle position i need to put this much fuel in. The fuel/air mix was determined my HD engineers, the sert allows you to go into the computer and change the mapping effectively changing the F/A mix. When the motor is in closed loop the ecm looks at the mass air flow sensor and the o2 sensors and makes all necessary F/A mix changes it needs to. This how I THINK sert or other tuners work if im wrong or half rite im sure the pro's will let us know.