Cams - some musing and data
Thread Starter
|
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
* * *
For those who have the T-Max, select "TMax Control Center" and then on the "Engine Rpm Log Checkup" click the "Details" button ... you've got to be connected to your bike ....
I've 'saved' the logs, but for some reason can't pull them up from the saved files ... so I did a print screen and saved them as JPEG files ....
* * *
I keystroked the data into an Excel spreadsheet and did some graphs ....
For those who have the T-Max, select "TMax Control Center" and then on the "Engine Rpm Log Checkup" click the "Details" button ... you've got to be connected to your bike ....
I've 'saved' the logs, but for some reason can't pull them up from the saved files ... so I did a print screen and saved them as JPEG files ....
* * *
I keystroked the data into an Excel spreadsheet and did some graphs ....
Something that occurred to me as I reviewed the hours ... there must have been some data stored in the ECM when I installed it on my bike (got it second hand) ... because on the 16th of May (my first data download) there were 318 hrs, 31 min, 6 sec ...
I only rode 437.8 miles between the 27th of April and the 16th of May (and as I recall, I averaged more than 1.374489 MPH) ... so, I did some more graphing of my data and will post it up later this evening when I have my other computer up ....
[As a frame of reference, I rode 6,029.7 miles in the 418 hrs, 10 min, 5 sec between 16 May and 18 Oct ... wow, only averaged 14.419322 MPH! Those red lights must really add up!]
The graph (while it still has what seems to be an inordinately huge spike at idle speed) is not as skewed toward the lower RPM range ... a lot of the 'old data' caused the graph to show more time between about 1,700 RPM and 2,500 RPM ....
While the graph I did that excludes the earlier data also has a concentration of time there, it does not tail off nearly as much above 3,000 RPM ....
R/
'Chop
p.s. if anyone else has some data from their ThunderMax ECM, I would really be interested in looking at it ... if you need help graphing it, I'd be happy to help you ... post or PM me ....
Last edited by SURFOR Chop; Oct 20, 2010 at 02:57 PM.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,082
Likes: 11
From: Long Island, NY
Something sounds wrong with your numbers that you are only averaging 14.419322 MPH.
Think of it this way, when you go out for a 1 hour ride are you only covering a bit over 14 miles? Unless you're always stuck in bumper to bumper traffic I don't think so. And, if you are, then there is no need to do any performance mods cause you're never moving fast enough to appreciate them.
When I go out for a 1 hour ride on the congested roads of LI and ride a mix of roads, ie. parkway, secondary and one lane, I always cover at least 30 miles.
Anyhow, you may want to recheck your data since it will greatly skew the numbers and therefore your conclusions may be incorrect.
Think of it this way, when you go out for a 1 hour ride are you only covering a bit over 14 miles? Unless you're always stuck in bumper to bumper traffic I don't think so. And, if you are, then there is no need to do any performance mods cause you're never moving fast enough to appreciate them.
When I go out for a 1 hour ride on the congested roads of LI and ride a mix of roads, ie. parkway, secondary and one lane, I always cover at least 30 miles.
Anyhow, you may want to recheck your data since it will greatly skew the numbers and therefore your conclusions may be incorrect.
Well ... been saving additional 'warranty data' periodically since posting this ....
Something that occurred to me as I reviewed the hours ... there must have been some data stored in the ECM when I installed it on my bike (got it second hand) ... because on the 16th of May (my first data download) there were 318 hrs, 31 min, 6 sec ...
I only rode 437.8 miles between the 27th of April and the 16th of May (and as I recall, I averaged more than 1.374489 MPH) ... so, I did some more graphing of my data and will post it up later this evening when I have my other computer up ....
[As a frame of reference, I rode 6,029.7 miles in the 418 hrs, 10 min, 5 sec between 16 May and 18 Oct ... wow, only averaged 14.419322 MPH! Those red lights must really add up!]
The graph (while it still has what seems to be an inordinately huge spike at idle speed) is not as skewed toward the lower RPM range ... a lot of the 'old data' caused the graph to show more time between about 1,700 RPM and 2,500 RPM ....
While the graph I did that excludes the earlier data also has a concentration of time there, it does not tail off nearly as much above 3,000 RPM ....
R/
'Chop
p.s. if anyone else has some data from their ThunderMax ECM, I would really be interested in looking at it ... if you need help graphing it, I'd be happy to help you ... post or PM me ....
Something that occurred to me as I reviewed the hours ... there must have been some data stored in the ECM when I installed it on my bike (got it second hand) ... because on the 16th of May (my first data download) there were 318 hrs, 31 min, 6 sec ...
I only rode 437.8 miles between the 27th of April and the 16th of May (and as I recall, I averaged more than 1.374489 MPH) ... so, I did some more graphing of my data and will post it up later this evening when I have my other computer up ....
[As a frame of reference, I rode 6,029.7 miles in the 418 hrs, 10 min, 5 sec between 16 May and 18 Oct ... wow, only averaged 14.419322 MPH! Those red lights must really add up!]
The graph (while it still has what seems to be an inordinately huge spike at idle speed) is not as skewed toward the lower RPM range ... a lot of the 'old data' caused the graph to show more time between about 1,700 RPM and 2,500 RPM ....
While the graph I did that excludes the earlier data also has a concentration of time there, it does not tail off nearly as much above 3,000 RPM ....
R/
'Chop
p.s. if anyone else has some data from their ThunderMax ECM, I would really be interested in looking at it ... if you need help graphing it, I'd be happy to help you ... post or PM me ....
Thread Starter
|
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
Something sounds wrong with your numbers that you are only averaging 14.419322 MPH.
Think of it this way, when you go out for a 1 hour ride are you only covering a bit over 14 miles? Unless you're always stuck in bumper to bumper traffic I don't think so. And, if you are, then there is no need to do any performance mods cause you're never moving fast enough to appreciate them.
When I go out for a 1 hour ride on the congested roads of LI and ride a mix of roads, ie. parkway, secondary and one lane, I always cover at least 30 miles.
Anyhow, you may want to recheck your data since it will greatly skew the numbers and therefore your conclusions may be incorrect.
Think of it this way, when you go out for a 1 hour ride are you only covering a bit over 14 miles? Unless you're always stuck in bumper to bumper traffic I don't think so. And, if you are, then there is no need to do any performance mods cause you're never moving fast enough to appreciate them.
When I go out for a 1 hour ride on the congested roads of LI and ride a mix of roads, ie. parkway, secondary and one lane, I always cover at least 30 miles.
Anyhow, you may want to recheck your data since it will greatly skew the numbers and therefore your conclusions may be incorrect.
I am convinced that it is the amount of idling and sitting at stoplights ... If I cut out the amount of time spent below 1,500 RPM (under the assumption that I'm not 'moving' below that) my average goes up to about 20 MPH ... still seems pretty low ....
I would really like to look at some data from other T-Max owners to validate my experience ... anyone ...? ROBOT TOM ...?
Thread Starter
|
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
I segmented the periods that show the difference between commuting and mixed riding and a couple of trips ...
I swapped out the stock cams for my Andrews TW37B ... and had a problem with sumping ... was able to fix it, but you can see that the head temps were a little elevated ....
I took a road trip to Western North Carolina from Hampton Roads area of Virginia ....
I swapped out the stock cams for my Andrews TW37B ... and had a problem with sumping ... was able to fix it, but you can see that the head temps were a little elevated ....
I took a road trip to Western North Carolina from Hampton Roads area of Virginia ....
Thread Starter
|
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
Took a little trip up to DC from Hampton Roads VA ...
I was a little more liberal with the throttle ... just kind of pushing the envelope ... seems it shows from the curve ....
I was a little more liberal with the throttle ... just kind of pushing the envelope ... seems it shows from the curve ....
Last edited by SURFOR Chop; Oct 20, 2010 at 08:31 PM.
When I analyzed the data, I was really surprised at that as well ... I'd be interested in what others with T-Max show on their RPM logs ... anyone ...?
Vic - didn't think you still had it ... thought you had a 'taker' for it (since I didn't jump on your offer before) ....
* * *
Did a little more annotations to the graphs to kind of highlight some of the points I was trying to make ...
By looking at the highlighted area of the graph, you can see where I spend most of my time ... for example, I rode to work a lot this summer and there are two routes I take (i) from NWSY (Gate 3) I take I-64 from exit 247 to exit 242, then Hwy 199 to CAX; or (ii) from NWSY (Gate 1) I take the Colonial Parkway to CAX .... taking the first route I quickly run through the gears up to around 75 then around 50 - 60 the rest of the way; whereas if I take the Parkway it's 45 - 55 pretty much the whole way ... also, the first route is about 8.5 miles and the second route is 14.5 miles ....
While I may sometimes skirt the speed limits modestly, I am for the most part a fairly defensive / conservative rider ... for example, I look ahead at the lights and throttle back/coast to a red light so I don't have to stop as much (i.e., the light changes to green before I have to come to a complete stop) ... this may explain the high numbers at or around idle due to the high percentage of 'city driving' I do ....
* * *
One of my points was that everyone gets all excited about the circled portion of the dyno graph, but fail to consider that they spend most of their lives at the highlighted portion of the dyno curve ...
R/
'Chop
Vic - didn't think you still had it ... thought you had a 'taker' for it (since I didn't jump on your offer before) ....
* * *
Did a little more annotations to the graphs to kind of highlight some of the points I was trying to make ...
By looking at the highlighted area of the graph, you can see where I spend most of my time ... for example, I rode to work a lot this summer and there are two routes I take (i) from NWSY (Gate 3) I take I-64 from exit 247 to exit 242, then Hwy 199 to CAX; or (ii) from NWSY (Gate 1) I take the Colonial Parkway to CAX .... taking the first route I quickly run through the gears up to around 75 then around 50 - 60 the rest of the way; whereas if I take the Parkway it's 45 - 55 pretty much the whole way ... also, the first route is about 8.5 miles and the second route is 14.5 miles ....
While I may sometimes skirt the speed limits modestly, I am for the most part a fairly defensive / conservative rider ... for example, I look ahead at the lights and throttle back/coast to a red light so I don't have to stop as much (i.e., the light changes to green before I have to come to a complete stop) ... this may explain the high numbers at or around idle due to the high percentage of 'city driving' I do ....
* * *
One of my points was that everyone gets all excited about the circled portion of the dyno graph, but fail to consider that they spend most of their lives at the highlighted portion of the dyno curve ...
R/
'Chop
The circle is the fun part though.......
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
Jason Momoa Is Turning Classic Harleys Into PHEVs
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Fat Boy Becomes a Dark, Decepticon-Inspired Custom
Verdad Gallardo
6 Weirdest Harley-Davidsons Ever Sold to the Public
Verdad Gallardo
7 Times Harley-Davidson Chucked Tradition Out the Window
Verdad Gallardo
7 Surprising Harley-Davidson Products that Are Not Motorcycles
Verdad Gallardo
8 Best Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Thread Starter
|
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,919
Likes: 23
From: Seattle, WA
6 Months of Data
I got this ThunderMax with AutoTune (TMAT) unit in my bike second hand from another forum member ... I had previously posted a thread asking for data from other users when it occurred to me ... the unit he sent me had his data ....
So, I did a couple of graphs of the comparative data ... RPM log and Head Temp log graphs ... I broke them down into segments and analyzed percent each of us spent in the respective segments, as a frame of reference ....
A couple of observations:
1. I thought I had been spending an inordinate amount of time at idle ... that appears to be false ... I spent 1.2% less time than my counterpart at or below 1000 RPM ... my idle time is more concentrated at 900 RPM, whereas his is spread over 900-1000 RPM ...
2. I have spent more time above 3500 RPM than he spent above 3000 RPM ... (but, it still amazes me how little time either of us spent above 3000 RPM) ...
***think about that when you say you need a cam that comes on at 3000 RPM***
- In fact, he spent 95% of his time below 2500 RPM
- I spent a little less than 70% of my time below 2500 RPM
3. I don't think I have too much of a problem with heat ... a quarter of my time has been between 220* and 240* ... my heat curve is skewed comfortably to the left side of the graph ....
Hope this data is of use to some of y'all ....
R/
'Chop
So, I did a couple of graphs of the comparative data ... RPM log and Head Temp log graphs ... I broke them down into segments and analyzed percent each of us spent in the respective segments, as a frame of reference ....
A couple of observations:
1. I thought I had been spending an inordinate amount of time at idle ... that appears to be false ... I spent 1.2% less time than my counterpart at or below 1000 RPM ... my idle time is more concentrated at 900 RPM, whereas his is spread over 900-1000 RPM ...
2. I have spent more time above 3500 RPM than he spent above 3000 RPM ... (but, it still amazes me how little time either of us spent above 3000 RPM) ...
***think about that when you say you need a cam that comes on at 3000 RPM***
- In fact, he spent 95% of his time below 2500 RPM
- I spent a little less than 70% of my time below 2500 RPM
3. I don't think I have too much of a problem with heat ... a quarter of my time has been between 220* and 240* ... my heat curve is skewed comfortably to the left side of the graph ....
Hope this data is of use to some of y'all ....
R/
'Chop
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,863
Likes: 21
From: Kennewick, WA
Pretty amazing info Todd. I realized some time ago that a conservative cam choice is usually the right one. I went with the Andrews 26H for a couple reasons, first they were new and DIRT CHEAP from a guy that changed his mind and secondly I forced myself to be truely honest with how I actually rode. I've been very happy with the choice (inner child still wants BIGGER!) and your research confirms it. Nice job!