Motor Shutoff/Failure to Start
Supporter
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 15,788
Likes: 5,625
From: along the shore of Mishigami
A couple of common items with the newer bikes that I've seen on this subject is 1) a loose negative battery cable, or 2) if the bike was washed in preperation for your return maybe some water got up in the TTS connections. Might want to check those.
1st Gear
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
From: Denver, CO
More info...
I tightened the ground cable on the battery. It was slightly loose, but not enough to cause any problems.
I started the bike and first try everything worked fine. I then rode the bike up the street from the house and it turned itself off (while I had plenty of gas to the engine) before I even made it to the freeway entrance. I tried to restart it several times and there was NO action every time I hit the start button - no attempts, no battery drain, etc. I floated it back down to the house (good thing it was all down hill!).
I checked the codes. Here they are:
P0261 - Front injector Open/Low
P0263 - Rear injector Open/Low
P1003 - System Relay Contacts Open
I don't believe it is a FOB or battery issue. However, the battery does run down when I try to start it several times in a row (at least when it attempts to actually crank as opposed to sometimes when it does absolutely nothing). I've got it hooked up to my trickle charger now just to make sure it's not aiding in the problems. The battery appears to be fine though - all of the lights (blinkers, check engine, security light) are bright and don't seem to fade when I attempt to crank the engine (except for after I've tried it 5-6 times in a row).
Sometimes the bike will attempt to start and just not turnover. Other times, I hit the crank button and nothing happens - no battery drain (based on the brightness of the lights), no engine movement - nothing!
I cleared the error codes and the same ones came back after I attempted a crank - so I know they are new and not old error codes. I checked the ECM connections as best I could and I also checked the fuses. Nothing seems to be out of the ordinary. The wiring harnesses coming out of the ECM look brand spanking new. They're wrapped and I see no visible wear and tear, melting, or anything of the sort.
I did find another post with a similar problem, but I didn't see that anybody posted a resolution to the problem:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/gener...ml#post7909169
Thoughts, suggestions, ideas?
I started the bike and first try everything worked fine. I then rode the bike up the street from the house and it turned itself off (while I had plenty of gas to the engine) before I even made it to the freeway entrance. I tried to restart it several times and there was NO action every time I hit the start button - no attempts, no battery drain, etc. I floated it back down to the house (good thing it was all down hill!).
I checked the codes. Here they are:
P0261 - Front injector Open/Low
P0263 - Rear injector Open/Low
P1003 - System Relay Contacts Open
I don't believe it is a FOB or battery issue. However, the battery does run down when I try to start it several times in a row (at least when it attempts to actually crank as opposed to sometimes when it does absolutely nothing). I've got it hooked up to my trickle charger now just to make sure it's not aiding in the problems. The battery appears to be fine though - all of the lights (blinkers, check engine, security light) are bright and don't seem to fade when I attempt to crank the engine (except for after I've tried it 5-6 times in a row).
Sometimes the bike will attempt to start and just not turnover. Other times, I hit the crank button and nothing happens - no battery drain (based on the brightness of the lights), no engine movement - nothing!
I cleared the error codes and the same ones came back after I attempted a crank - so I know they are new and not old error codes. I checked the ECM connections as best I could and I also checked the fuses. Nothing seems to be out of the ordinary. The wiring harnesses coming out of the ECM look brand spanking new. They're wrapped and I see no visible wear and tear, melting, or anything of the sort.
I did find another post with a similar problem, but I didn't see that anybody posted a resolution to the problem:
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/gener...ml#post7909169
Thoughts, suggestions, ideas?
Thread Starter
|
Tourer
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW
Online research has attributed those codes to a faulty start relay. So far 4 people have fixed the "failure to start" problem by replacing the starter relay.
That seems like an easy $5 fix, but I don't understand how that would kill the bike once it's riding?
That seems like an easy $5 fix, but I don't understand how that would kill the bike once it's riding?
Banned
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 5,403
Likes: 7
From: Southwest Florida
Alright guys, I'm in Afghanistan and my buddy at home has been taking care of my bike for the last 6 months. He was getting her all ready for my return in 2.5 weeks and came across these problems...
"1. When attempting to start the bike, I turn the *** on the tank and flip the run switch... I wait a few secs for the check engine light to go off. Sometimes it goes off, sometimes it doesn't. Anyways, I hit the start button and nothing happens. No attempts to crank, no apparent batter drane... nothing. Wait a few secs/mins... go through the start procedure again... sometimes it starts right up and sometimes I have to go through the procedure a few times before it starts.
2. When riding 50 mph down the Pali, the motor just shuts off and I grab the clutch and have to pull over. All the electronics seem to be OK and the check engine light is on. Nothing else seems out of the ordinary (no blinkers, security lights, etc as far as I can tell). I then have the same problems mentioned above when trying to restart the bike. So far, I've never had it cut out on my while I had a lot of gas to the engine. It normally seems to happen when I'm not really throttling it too hard (minimal throttle or none at all - i.e. when I'm approaching or sitting at a stop light).
The check engine light does come on sometimes during the ride - sometimes turn itself off and other times it won't. The engine doesn't appear to be running overly hot (based on temp of my legs)... no burning smells or anything like that."
I've sent him info on how to pull the engine codes from the odometer (unless the info for an 07 Touring is different than an 08 Dyna.)
Any ideas? I'm worried that if my roommate takes the bike to the dealer they're just going to say "Woah, Braddah. That's a TTS tuner! You're on yo' own, Haole."
Any thoughts?
"1. When attempting to start the bike, I turn the *** on the tank and flip the run switch... I wait a few secs for the check engine light to go off. Sometimes it goes off, sometimes it doesn't. Anyways, I hit the start button and nothing happens. No attempts to crank, no apparent batter drane... nothing. Wait a few secs/mins... go through the start procedure again... sometimes it starts right up and sometimes I have to go through the procedure a few times before it starts.
2. When riding 50 mph down the Pali, the motor just shuts off and I grab the clutch and have to pull over. All the electronics seem to be OK and the check engine light is on. Nothing else seems out of the ordinary (no blinkers, security lights, etc as far as I can tell). I then have the same problems mentioned above when trying to restart the bike. So far, I've never had it cut out on my while I had a lot of gas to the engine. It normally seems to happen when I'm not really throttling it too hard (minimal throttle or none at all - i.e. when I'm approaching or sitting at a stop light).
The check engine light does come on sometimes during the ride - sometimes turn itself off and other times it won't. The engine doesn't appear to be running overly hot (based on temp of my legs)... no burning smells or anything like that."
I've sent him info on how to pull the engine codes from the odometer (unless the info for an 07 Touring is different than an 08 Dyna.)
Any ideas? I'm worried that if my roommate takes the bike to the dealer they're just going to say "Woah, Braddah. That's a TTS tuner! You're on yo' own, Haole."
Any thoughts?
Look for the easiest and cheapest and simplest things to fix/eliminate first.
Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW
Hokay, you mentioned the TTS. Cool (my plans for the future) but what other mods/upgrades have you done to the bike, if any? Have you been into the run/kill switch? Have you added/altered any lights, grips/ have you been into the wiring harness for any reason, have you put new pipes on it????? Sounds electrical to me. Or computer. 80/20 electrical to computer, IMHO.
Look for the easiest and cheapest and simplest things to fix/eliminate first.
Look for the easiest and cheapest and simplest things to fix/eliminate first.
My roommate has checked connections, too. People with the same error codes have replaced the starter relay and fixed the problem, but not sure if there's more going on that would kill the bike while riding. Only one way to tell...
Advanced
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
From: Paradise..The Gulf Coast
Sounds like the problem I was having and it was the relay switch......I think someone upthread mentioned as well.....Harley dealership is aware that some faulty relay switches were iinstalled....It took them 15 minutes to fix mine !
Road Captain
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 740
Likes: 228
From: Lagoa - VNF
I'd try this : first replace both relays (they're cheap), and if the problem persists I would reflash the ECM with TTS. I have seen weird problems like this go away more than once with a reflash. make sure bike's battery is good and fully charged before reflashing.
The TTS is only an interface. The ECM is stock and I hesitate to say it's ECM related when it's run fine for 9+ months with that map...especially considering the sporadic nature of the problem.
My roommate has checked connections, too. People with the same error codes have replaced the starter relay and fixed the problem, but not sure if there's more going on that would kill the bike while riding. Only one way to tell...
My roommate has checked connections, too. People with the same error codes have replaced the starter relay and fixed the problem, but not sure if there's more going on that would kill the bike while riding. Only one way to tell...
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Thread Starter
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Tourer
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 382
Likes: 4
From: Pacific NW
Changed the start relay and no dice. The bike cranks, but won't start. Eh, just one thing after another. Looks like I'll have to get it to the dealer once I get home in a week and see what's up.
I'll post the results.
I'll post the results.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,403
Likes: 72
From: North Dakota
Fuel Injectors
The fuel injectors are solenoids that allow pressurized fuel into
the intake tract.The injectors are timed to the engine cycle and
triggered sequentially. The power for the injectors comes from
the system relay. The system relay also provides power for
the fuel pump and the ignition coil.The ECM provides the path
to ground to trigger the injectors.
the intake tract.The injectors are timed to the engine cycle and
triggered sequentially. The power for the injectors comes from
the system relay. The system relay also provides power for
the fuel pump and the ignition coil.The ECM provides the path
to ground to trigger the injectors.
NOTE
ECM fuse and system relay failures or wiring harness problems
will cause 12 volt power to be lost to both injectors, ignition
coils and fuel pump.
ECM fuse and system relay failures or wiring harness problems
will cause 12 volt power to be lost to both injectors, ignition
coils and fuel pump.
Table 4-35. Code Description
DTC DESCRIPTION
DTC DESCRIPTION
P0261 Front injector open/low
P0262 Front injector high
P0263 Rear injector open/low
P0264 Rear injector highP0262 Front injector high
P0263 Rear injector open/low
System Relay
See
Figure 4-26. With the Ignition Switch turned to IGN and
the Engine Stop Switch at RUN, the ECM will energize the
system relay to complete the circuit to the in-tank fuel pump,
ignition coil, and fuel injectors. They will remain powered as
long as the engine is cranking or running, and the ECM is
receiving ignition reference pulses from the CKP. If there are
no reference pulses, the ECM will de-energize the system relay
within 2 seconds after the Ignition Switch is turned to IGN or
engine has stalled, or immediately after Ignition Switch is turned
OFF.
the Engine Stop Switch at RUN, the ECM will energize the
system relay to complete the circuit to the in-tank fuel pump,
ignition coil, and fuel injectors. They will remain powered as
long as the engine is cranking or running, and the ECM is
receiving ignition reference pulses from the CKP. If there are
no reference pulses, the ECM will de-energize the system relay
within 2 seconds after the Ignition Switch is turned to IGN or
engine has stalled, or immediately after Ignition Switch is turned
OFF.
Table 4-14. Code Description
DTC DESCRIPTION
DTC DESCRIPTION
P1001 System relay coil open/low
P1002 System relay coil high/shorted
P1003 System relay contacts open
P1004 System relay contacts closedP1002 System relay coil high/shorted
P1003 System relay contacts open
There may be some confusion between the "Start Relay" and the "System Relay" Your issue seems in the area of the System Relay. Either not being energized or it's contacts won't stay closed.