Why Is Regulator Bad?
Thread Starter
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 30,883
Likes: 33,003
From: King George, VA
You answered the acedemics of the issue which I already knew. The problem I'm currently having is the regulators are going out, one after the other. The put out a little over 14VDC but the battery only measures a little over 11VDC when the motor is off. When I disconnect the battery terminals the voltage goes up to a little over 12VDC. I've tried isolating a possible short by pulling fuses but only a complete disconnect brings the voltage up to 12.4 VDC.
Road Master
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 773
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From: Between purgatory and retirement
Now we have additional information.
While you are doing all this it is not a bad idea to check your ground wires and connections for corrosion, check the wire insulation ( for cracks, wear, and the larger wires roll between your fingers to make sure the insulation is adhering to the wire: if it feels like the wire inside is moving you might have corrosion inside the insulation ).
So, you have confirmed the battery is in good condition, and that there is a substantial drain on the battery with all switches off, motor off, and you have pulled all the fuses and still there is a drain.
1) is that correct?
2) Does that include pulling the main fuse?
One of the problems with the starter/charging systems on these bikes is that when one component fails it puts a strain on other components in the system and can cause them to fail. So it is important to check out all the components when you suspect one has or is about to fail.
3) Have you, according to the stickies, checked the stator for shorts to ground?
My bike has six wires ( terminals ) going to the positive battery post.
4) Have you isolated which of the positive terminals is causing the voltage drop?
( I would, with main fuse pulled and the negative terminals connected as normal, put an amp meter between each of the wires and the positive post, one at a time with nothing else connected to the positive post, and measure the draw on each terminal. You could have more then one short so make sure you check all of them. )
5) Which wire(s) was it?
If it is the main wire that leads to the starter, I would disconnect the the regulator and test again.
If draw is still there I would be checking the starter for shorts to ground, and the wires that lead from the regulator.
While you are doing all this it is not a bad idea to check your ground wires and connections for corrosion, check the wire insulation ( for cracks, wear, and the larger wires roll between your fingers to make sure the insulation is adhering to the wire: if it feels like the wire inside is moving you might have corrosion inside the insulation ).
So, you have confirmed the battery is in good condition, and that there is a substantial drain on the battery with all switches off, motor off, and you have pulled all the fuses and still there is a drain.
1) is that correct?
2) Does that include pulling the main fuse?
One of the problems with the starter/charging systems on these bikes is that when one component fails it puts a strain on other components in the system and can cause them to fail. So it is important to check out all the components when you suspect one has or is about to fail.
3) Have you, according to the stickies, checked the stator for shorts to ground?
My bike has six wires ( terminals ) going to the positive battery post.
4) Have you isolated which of the positive terminals is causing the voltage drop?
( I would, with main fuse pulled and the negative terminals connected as normal, put an amp meter between each of the wires and the positive post, one at a time with nothing else connected to the positive post, and measure the draw on each terminal. You could have more then one short so make sure you check all of them. )
5) Which wire(s) was it?
If it is the main wire that leads to the starter, I would disconnect the the regulator and test again.
If draw is still there I would be checking the starter for shorts to ground, and the wires that lead from the regulator.
Thread Starter
|
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 30,883
Likes: 33,003
From: King George, VA
Now we have additional information.
While you are doing all this it is not a bad idea to check your ground wires and connections for corrosion, check the wire insulation ( for cracks, wear, and the larger wires roll between your fingers to make sure the insulation is adhering to the wire: if it feels like the wire inside is moving you might have corrosion inside the insulation ).
So, you have confirmed the battery is in good condition, and that there is a substantial drain on the battery with all switches off, motor off, and you have pulled all the fuses and still there is a drain.
1) is that correct?
2) Does that include pulling the main fuse?
One of the problems with the starter/charging systems on these bikes is that when one component fails it puts a strain on other components in the system and can cause them to fail. So it is important to check out all the components when you suspect one has or is about to fail.
3) Have you, according to the stickies, checked the stator for shorts to ground?
My bike has six wires ( terminals ) going to the positive battery post.
4) Have you isolated which of the positive terminals is causing the voltage drop?
( I would, with main fuse pulled and the negative terminals connected as normal, put an amp meter between each of the wires and the positive post, one at a time with nothing else connected to the positive post, and measure the draw on each terminal. You could have more then one short so make sure you check all of them. )
5) Which wire(s) was it?
If it is the main wire that leads to the starter, I would disconnect the the regulator and test again.
If draw is still there I would be checking the starter for shorts to ground, and the wires that lead from the regulator.
While you are doing all this it is not a bad idea to check your ground wires and connections for corrosion, check the wire insulation ( for cracks, wear, and the larger wires roll between your fingers to make sure the insulation is adhering to the wire: if it feels like the wire inside is moving you might have corrosion inside the insulation ).
So, you have confirmed the battery is in good condition, and that there is a substantial drain on the battery with all switches off, motor off, and you have pulled all the fuses and still there is a drain.
1) is that correct?
2) Does that include pulling the main fuse?
One of the problems with the starter/charging systems on these bikes is that when one component fails it puts a strain on other components in the system and can cause them to fail. So it is important to check out all the components when you suspect one has or is about to fail.
3) Have you, according to the stickies, checked the stator for shorts to ground?
My bike has six wires ( terminals ) going to the positive battery post.
4) Have you isolated which of the positive terminals is causing the voltage drop?
( I would, with main fuse pulled and the negative terminals connected as normal, put an amp meter between each of the wires and the positive post, one at a time with nothing else connected to the positive post, and measure the draw on each terminal. You could have more then one short so make sure you check all of them. )
5) Which wire(s) was it?
If it is the main wire that leads to the starter, I would disconnect the the regulator and test again.
If draw is still there I would be checking the starter for shorts to ground, and the wires that lead from the regulator.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,625
Likes: 6,442
From: Honah Lee
Do not know if you got an answer but this may help. Just reading you post, I would say your battery is bad. It's charging correctly from you voltage. Not sure where you are referring to that you are checking 10VDC. Three wires off the stator is AC
Rev. 091615
Remember, the best made brand new battery that has been on a maintenance charger for 3 days that has a loose or bad connection is no better then a boat anchor with a loose rope. The connection can get loose after one ride if the battery is not anchored and the wires are short and get tugged in a direction that can unscrew the bolts.
After a good 24+ hour maintenance low amperage charge, with the charge light in the solid green and the battery has set about 24 hours off charge, voltage should be about 12.8 volts.
12.8 = full charged
12.6 = 75% charged
12.3 = 50% charged (Lot of new modern cars with system protection will not even click at this point but will have good headlight beams showing)
12.0 =25% charged
Always check both the terminals at the battery lead and also at the terminal on the wire. That helps to verify connection. With a DC volt meter (one that has a feature to lock high and low reading is best) hooked across the battery terminals and reading 12.8 or so, crank motor and while its cranking it should not drop below about 9.6 volts and as soon as it starts and throttled up to 2000 rpm, voltage should read around 14.8 volts. The 2000 rpm is the bench mark standard. Ignore idle output. Ignore output above 2000rpm unless it exceeds 14.9 volts. That is a sure indication that regulator is bad.
The crank check shows a rough check of the reserve amperage capacity of the battery while cranking with a 150-200 amp load on it. The 14.8 shows a good alternator and if you leave it on a while as the regulatory will drop the voltage a little showing itself working. However, with the lights and stuff always on, it will never drop back much. If you have a lot of options, most modern bikes will not show 14.8 charging volts at idle but stock newer bikes will be close. Older bikes with lower amperage output not so much. However, 2000 rpm is the bench mark for the standard 14.8 volts.
If you think battery is good and something is draining it sitting, now would be a good time to check for drain problems. Go to Harbor Freight and get you a AC/DC meter for under $25 or so. http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-d...ter-37772.html Make sure it has DC amps draw, DC voltage, resistance and AC voltage. Key off. Remove the negative cable off the battery. Set meter on DC amps. Hook the meter lead to cable and the other to battery. How many milliamps (mA) is it drawing? It should be no more then 6 mA which is the ECM (1), speedometer (1), tac,TSSM (1),HFSM (1) and voltage regulator (1)
When a battery wears out, a good charge will show fairly good voltage, but the battery can still have very low amperage capacity which will show in the crude crank test above, but it really should be checked after a good charge by removing it from bike and getting a free check at a place like AutoZone that has a fancy load meter check that gives you a print out of the battery health. Battery MUST BE CHARGED to check it. Be sure they set their meter to correct cold cranking amperage stated on the battery. Never charge the AGM absorbed glass mat battery with a regular car battery charger unless it is a newer one that says safe with this type of battery. Also, by taking battery out you now know you have good connections. Vibration tends to loosen the connections or a little corrosion will prevent charging or cause starting problems.
Using the maintenance charger can get more years from a battery but be careful here. You do not want the last start 5 miles from home. If it still grunts when you first hit starter or kicks back with a bang, replace it. After a few years, charge and pull battery and have it checked for cold cranking amperage ever spring. Even then, if it grunts most ever start, I would replace it. Most battery checkers at AutoZone and places like that do not do really well on the low amperage setting on small batteries. Not sure why but they tend to say they are OK when they are weak. If they have one that fits your bike, Wal-Mart's AGM absorbed glass mat battery is just as good as any for one third to half the money of a Harley Battery. Do not put an old fashion one with vent tubes on a modern TC Harley. Do not jump, push start or run bike with a half dead battery except in an emergency. If a bike battery is down and you jump it, throwing all that amps to it from a big car battery especially one that is running can wreck a bike regulator or charging system. Charging a worn out battery can kill alternator stator or the voltage regulator or both. Probably ending in a big dollar repair.
It is also a good idea to always check your battery at 2000 RPM with your meter set to AC. If by chance, the regulator goes bad, sometimes it will let AC come thru. That is a sure sign of a bad regulator. The older stators with two wires are a two phase AC system. Lot of people call it a single phase but it is two phase. The AC voltage you see appears single since you check it AC across the two wires since there is no earth ground. If you were to check one wire to an earth ground, it would show one half the voltage that you would see when you check the two wires together on the bike. Same with the other. Together they double and are two phase. The newer three-wire system is a 3-phase AC system for the higher amperage output.
Also remember, when starting a Harley, hit the starter and hold it in till it is firing on both cylinders and running before letting up. If you let up before its running, quiet often, it actually take an FI motor longer to start. There is a fraction of a second more for a long stroke Harley then a multi-cylinder car for it to get going. If you do not do this, it will kick back with a bang, sneeze thru the intake or crank a lot longer the second time or shame on you the third time. Also, if you have a habit of doing this, the starter solenoid switch contact will only have half the life it could. You cannot hurt the starter. The starter gear has a sprag clutch. There are drive pins in it that as the gas motor catches and run, it outruns the starter motor drive and disengages it from the electric motor. If you hold it in a little too long and listen carefully, you will hear the sprag clutch run up the ramps and slip. Makes a sizzle hum. This will show you your starter sprag clutch is OK.
Rev. 091615
Remember, the best made brand new battery that has been on a maintenance charger for 3 days that has a loose or bad connection is no better then a boat anchor with a loose rope. The connection can get loose after one ride if the battery is not anchored and the wires are short and get tugged in a direction that can unscrew the bolts.
After a good 24+ hour maintenance low amperage charge, with the charge light in the solid green and the battery has set about 24 hours off charge, voltage should be about 12.8 volts.
12.8 = full charged
12.6 = 75% charged
12.3 = 50% charged (Lot of new modern cars with system protection will not even click at this point but will have good headlight beams showing)
12.0 =25% charged
Always check both the terminals at the battery lead and also at the terminal on the wire. That helps to verify connection. With a DC volt meter (one that has a feature to lock high and low reading is best) hooked across the battery terminals and reading 12.8 or so, crank motor and while its cranking it should not drop below about 9.6 volts and as soon as it starts and throttled up to 2000 rpm, voltage should read around 14.8 volts. The 2000 rpm is the bench mark standard. Ignore idle output. Ignore output above 2000rpm unless it exceeds 14.9 volts. That is a sure indication that regulator is bad.
The crank check shows a rough check of the reserve amperage capacity of the battery while cranking with a 150-200 amp load on it. The 14.8 shows a good alternator and if you leave it on a while as the regulatory will drop the voltage a little showing itself working. However, with the lights and stuff always on, it will never drop back much. If you have a lot of options, most modern bikes will not show 14.8 charging volts at idle but stock newer bikes will be close. Older bikes with lower amperage output not so much. However, 2000 rpm is the bench mark for the standard 14.8 volts.
If you think battery is good and something is draining it sitting, now would be a good time to check for drain problems. Go to Harbor Freight and get you a AC/DC meter for under $25 or so. http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-d...ter-37772.html Make sure it has DC amps draw, DC voltage, resistance and AC voltage. Key off. Remove the negative cable off the battery. Set meter on DC amps. Hook the meter lead to cable and the other to battery. How many milliamps (mA) is it drawing? It should be no more then 6 mA which is the ECM (1), speedometer (1), tac,TSSM (1),HFSM (1) and voltage regulator (1)
When a battery wears out, a good charge will show fairly good voltage, but the battery can still have very low amperage capacity which will show in the crude crank test above, but it really should be checked after a good charge by removing it from bike and getting a free check at a place like AutoZone that has a fancy load meter check that gives you a print out of the battery health. Battery MUST BE CHARGED to check it. Be sure they set their meter to correct cold cranking amperage stated on the battery. Never charge the AGM absorbed glass mat battery with a regular car battery charger unless it is a newer one that says safe with this type of battery. Also, by taking battery out you now know you have good connections. Vibration tends to loosen the connections or a little corrosion will prevent charging or cause starting problems.
Using the maintenance charger can get more years from a battery but be careful here. You do not want the last start 5 miles from home. If it still grunts when you first hit starter or kicks back with a bang, replace it. After a few years, charge and pull battery and have it checked for cold cranking amperage ever spring. Even then, if it grunts most ever start, I would replace it. Most battery checkers at AutoZone and places like that do not do really well on the low amperage setting on small batteries. Not sure why but they tend to say they are OK when they are weak. If they have one that fits your bike, Wal-Mart's AGM absorbed glass mat battery is just as good as any for one third to half the money of a Harley Battery. Do not put an old fashion one with vent tubes on a modern TC Harley. Do not jump, push start or run bike with a half dead battery except in an emergency. If a bike battery is down and you jump it, throwing all that amps to it from a big car battery especially one that is running can wreck a bike regulator or charging system. Charging a worn out battery can kill alternator stator or the voltage regulator or both. Probably ending in a big dollar repair.
It is also a good idea to always check your battery at 2000 RPM with your meter set to AC. If by chance, the regulator goes bad, sometimes it will let AC come thru. That is a sure sign of a bad regulator. The older stators with two wires are a two phase AC system. Lot of people call it a single phase but it is two phase. The AC voltage you see appears single since you check it AC across the two wires since there is no earth ground. If you were to check one wire to an earth ground, it would show one half the voltage that you would see when you check the two wires together on the bike. Same with the other. Together they double and are two phase. The newer three-wire system is a 3-phase AC system for the higher amperage output.
Also remember, when starting a Harley, hit the starter and hold it in till it is firing on both cylinders and running before letting up. If you let up before its running, quiet often, it actually take an FI motor longer to start. There is a fraction of a second more for a long stroke Harley then a multi-cylinder car for it to get going. If you do not do this, it will kick back with a bang, sneeze thru the intake or crank a lot longer the second time or shame on you the third time. Also, if you have a habit of doing this, the starter solenoid switch contact will only have half the life it could. You cannot hurt the starter. The starter gear has a sprag clutch. There are drive pins in it that as the gas motor catches and run, it outruns the starter motor drive and disengages it from the electric motor. If you hold it in a little too long and listen carefully, you will hear the sprag clutch run up the ramps and slip. Makes a sizzle hum. This will show you your starter sprag clutch is OK.
Thread Starter
|
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 30,883
Likes: 33,003
From: King George, VA
As I have said several times now, I was measuring 10VDC at the plug on the Regulator where the stator plugs in WHEN THE MOTOR IS OFF. Think about it now. The stator will not produce electricity if the motor isn't running, so the only other place the voltage would be coming from is the battery. Second point is; if I'm measuring voltage at the plug where the stator plugs in, I must have the stator unplugged to do that.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 38,625
Likes: 6,442
From: Honah Lee
With motor off and you are reading 10 VDC at the three connections you are referring too. Reattaching all the regulator connections. What it the voltage on the lead part of the battery terminals and also the cable lugs? With it running at fast idle around 2000 rpm , what are the voltages at the battery and the cable lug connections?
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Thread Starter
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 30,883
Likes: 33,003
From: King George, VA
With motor off and you are reading 10 VDC at the three connections you are referring too. Reattaching all the regulator connections. What it the voltage on the lead part of the battery terminals and also the cable lugs? With it running at fast idle around 2000 rpm , what are the voltages at the battery and the cable lug connections?
