77 Shovel charging question
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2021
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From: New Jersey
77 Shovel charging question
Thanks for looking at this to begin with... I have a mostly stock FLH that I've had up for sale. It's been starting and idling good but my back prevents me from actually riding it up the road. A couple days ago I let her idle about ten minutes to get up to temperature. I shut it down and tried to start it back up but it wouldn't turn over. I kicked it and it fired right up. I put a voltmeter across the battery terminals and it read 12V. I revved it a bit and the meter bounced between 4 and 12 volts rapidly, depending on RPM.
I looked through a number of internet threads on charging HD's. I see there are many ways to test all the components of the charging system. Something I'd like to minimize.
The battery is a year old and after charging it, turns the engine over easily. The engine has 9.5-1 pistons. In other words, the battery & starter worked well cold and a little warm. When I ran it longer and hotter (lights all on), could it have discharged the battery that much?
But my real question simply is: does the fluctuating voltage reading across the terminals indicate something about the regulator?
I looked through a number of internet threads on charging HD's. I see there are many ways to test all the components of the charging system. Something I'd like to minimize.
The battery is a year old and after charging it, turns the engine over easily. The engine has 9.5-1 pistons. In other words, the battery & starter worked well cold and a little warm. When I ran it longer and hotter (lights all on), could it have discharged the battery that much?
But my real question simply is: does the fluctuating voltage reading across the terminals indicate something about the regulator?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
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first off do you have the FSM?
kiss it first by checking connections as an idle machine collects moisture that normally would dissipate by regular riding.
these machines have a true alternating system and are field force unlike the newer PMG.
can the fluctuating voltage be normal, well yes and no. the system have an over voltage protection circuit and the regulator will shut down till voltage comes back down, it also can become faulty and these are special regulators so might be a trick to find one. it was made by "tympanium"
the rotor has 12 encase magnets and the stator has 12 poles and and has main winding and field forcing winding.
the fsm says about the regulator is to try a known good one and if the system comes up it was the problem and if not the old one is probably good. the stator can be checked with vom up to .4 ohms and infinity to ground. the ac output is around 20vac/1000rpm the regulator when in circuit clamp it to 50vac and the protection circuit turns off the scr regulator and shunt the voltage to ground, hence the on/off action.
also of note is that 76 and later does not directly replace earlier machines.
kiss it first by checking connections as an idle machine collects moisture that normally would dissipate by regular riding.
these machines have a true alternating system and are field force unlike the newer PMG.
can the fluctuating voltage be normal, well yes and no. the system have an over voltage protection circuit and the regulator will shut down till voltage comes back down, it also can become faulty and these are special regulators so might be a trick to find one. it was made by "tympanium"
the rotor has 12 encase magnets and the stator has 12 poles and and has main winding and field forcing winding.
the fsm says about the regulator is to try a known good one and if the system comes up it was the problem and if not the old one is probably good. the stator can be checked with vom up to .4 ohms and infinity to ground. the ac output is around 20vac/1000rpm the regulator when in circuit clamp it to 50vac and the protection circuit turns off the scr regulator and shunt the voltage to ground, hence the on/off action.
also of note is that 76 and later does not directly replace earlier machines.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 12
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From: New Jersey
Yes, I have a couple manuals for shovelheads. The bike was sitting over last winter but I've been starting it regularly since June. It's in a dry location plus I keep it covered.
So if I understand you properly, the voltage across the battery terminals could be fluctuating as a normal function? Also that I should check the other components you describe.
I'm going to try it again today to see if I can clearer numbers on the meter.
If anyone else has a tip or short cuts to learning what the fluctuating voltage across the battery terminals mean, please drop a line.
So if I understand you properly, the voltage across the battery terminals could be fluctuating as a normal function? Also that I should check the other components you describe.
I'm going to try it again today to see if I can clearer numbers on the meter.
If anyone else has a tip or short cuts to learning what the fluctuating voltage across the battery terminals mean, please drop a line.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
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if your leads are on the battery, it will read the battery voltage and will vary little. if you are dropping to very low volts, i would kiss it.
looks like a bad connection or corroded terminal. vibs with revs is also an indicator. have you load tested the battery? there could be a bad internal connection in the battery also, seen this before.
also, the meter should also pickup regulator output and battery voltage should recover after a start, 12 volts is low and battery will not fully charge. for grins and giggles, if your meter can read ac, see if there is any ripple, some to be expected but too high, indicates bad rectification in the regulator.
looks like a bad connection or corroded terminal. vibs with revs is also an indicator. have you load tested the battery? there could be a bad internal connection in the battery also, seen this before.
also, the meter should also pickup regulator output and battery voltage should recover after a start, 12 volts is low and battery will not fully charge. for grins and giggles, if your meter can read ac, see if there is any ripple, some to be expected but too high, indicates bad rectification in the regulator.
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 12
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From: New Jersey
I just read your latest and here's what I did. I tried starting it, turned over okay, engine started but only one cylinder. Front didn't fire but when I tested for spark at wire it had spark with my test plug and the spark plug also fired. I didn't see any fuel on the plug. The battery read 12.15 volts. While I had the plugs out I did a compression check and both were 115-120. I had to stop right there and hope to get back to her tomorrow. I'm ordering new plugs as they are pretty old. The coil and wires were new and are sparking good.
Any thoughts? Could the battery be causing just the front cylinder not to fire? Thanks in advance...
Any thoughts? Could the battery be causing just the front cylinder not to fire? Thanks in advance...
Seasoned HDF Member
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if you started it and the voltage did not climb, not getting charge current and 12.15 volts is low and is 40>45% charged.
when i let my 01 sport setup long term, it will usually run on one cyl or not rev for a minute or so till the fuel circuits stabilize in the carb.
electronic ignition will drop out if voltage gets to low and if using the electric foot it can draw down to where it will miss a beat. if points system, voltage to low will not saturate the coil so secondary energy will be too low and miss a beat.
pull the battery and charge it then do two back to back load tests, the first is to remove any surface charge the second to see how well the battery is. anytime i get hard starts, a battery in the future will be needed.
when i let my 01 sport setup long term, it will usually run on one cyl or not rev for a minute or so till the fuel circuits stabilize in the carb.
electronic ignition will drop out if voltage gets to low and if using the electric foot it can draw down to where it will miss a beat. if points system, voltage to low will not saturate the coil so secondary energy will be too low and miss a beat.
pull the battery and charge it then do two back to back load tests, the first is to remove any surface charge the second to see how well the battery is. anytime i get hard starts, a battery in the future will be needed.
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2021
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From: New Jersey
I've been stubborn about this battery. I just bought it last summer and I've been "hoping" it will work it's way back. I replaced the S&S needle and seat six weeks ago because it was leaking through. It worked fine.
It just seems odd that it's only the front cylinder that won't run and I swapped plugs, tested them and spark at the plug wires, all good. This done as soon as I shut it down.
The plugs are black from it idling when the float was leaking. They have a nice blue spark outside the cylinder.
I'm going to check the charging items you mentioned above. I checked the valve-pushrods and they spin nicely on compression stroke.
And also, I didn't see any gas on the front plug when I pulled it after it wouldn't run.
When you say "pull the battery and charge it", why do I have to pull it? I've charged it with the ground removed or with both wires still connected. Please comment on this.
Thanks again, John
Forgot to mention I put electronic ignition a long time ago. Accel I believe.
It just seems odd that it's only the front cylinder that won't run and I swapped plugs, tested them and spark at the plug wires, all good. This done as soon as I shut it down.
The plugs are black from it idling when the float was leaking. They have a nice blue spark outside the cylinder.
I'm going to check the charging items you mentioned above. I checked the valve-pushrods and they spin nicely on compression stroke.
And also, I didn't see any gas on the front plug when I pulled it after it wouldn't run.
When you say "pull the battery and charge it", why do I have to pull it? I've charged it with the ground removed or with both wires still connected. Please comment on this.
Thanks again, John
Forgot to mention I put electronic ignition a long time ago. Accel I believe.
Last edited by woojr; Oct 4, 2021 at 09:00 AM.
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Seasoned HDF Member
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well, if you have a good charger and the connections are good then it does not matter, i have a maintainer on mine. however, i would prefer to load test out of the machine because it is safer to do so. if you have a smart charger, it could be bad. an idle or not properly charged battery will go downhill.
grins and giggles, use a syringe and squirt some fuel down the carb throat and try to start. if she does, look to the carb could have plugged passages. hd fuels kinda funny especially at idle. the carb might not be able to supply enough fuel.
those points compartment ign are prone to failure due to heat. some have an over current protection circuit and will shut down but a key cycle will reset it.
install some inline spark testers and see if the ign drops out while cranking or short start. sparking outside is not the same as in the head. also high resistance in the primary will cause low secondary energy.
btw: this happened to me, a bad bar kill sw. i never used it so it corroded up and killed the machine but i was fortunate enough to be able to keep fiddling with the rocker to keep it running, limping home. i now make a habit of working it to help wipe the contacts.
grins and giggles, use a syringe and squirt some fuel down the carb throat and try to start. if she does, look to the carb could have plugged passages. hd fuels kinda funny especially at idle. the carb might not be able to supply enough fuel.
those points compartment ign are prone to failure due to heat. some have an over current protection circuit and will shut down but a key cycle will reset it.
install some inline spark testers and see if the ign drops out while cranking or short start. sparking outside is not the same as in the head. also high resistance in the primary will cause low secondary energy.
btw: this happened to me, a bad bar kill sw. i never used it so it corroded up and killed the machine but i was fortunate enough to be able to keep fiddling with the rocker to keep it running, limping home. i now make a habit of working it to help wipe the contacts.
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Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 12
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From: New Jersey
Well, thank you for so much of your experience. I just came in from doing the following: I charged the battery for a couple hours, it read 12.65V. I had the plugs out so I checked the spark, it was great. I tried starting it, she cranked great, went for more than I ever do but nothing. I got one sputter when I twisted the accelerator pump a couple times. I checked the battery and voltage dropped to 12.15 but I knew it wasn't getting any gas. I pulled the plug on the bottom of the S&S carb and almost no fuel came out. The hose is clear so I saw the gas wasn't going into the carb. I can't believe it, I just had the bowl off and replaced the needle and seat about a month ago. It was running great. I had the petcock off last fall and cleaned the screen. The fuel was fresh with that additive for ethanol. So tomorrow I'll pull the bowl and see what happened. I hope the needle didn't melt shut?? I think it's in the petcock.
Also I did check the charging #'s, 0.5 Ohms on the stator and no shorts. There was some oil in the holes of the rubber plug that goes on the stator. I cleaned it out with some carb cleaner. I also noticed the switch to the running lights has failed. It has to to be replaced. I don't think this bike wants to leave me.
Also I did check the charging #'s, 0.5 Ohms on the stator and no shorts. There was some oil in the holes of the rubber plug that goes on the stator. I cleaned it out with some carb cleaner. I also noticed the switch to the running lights has failed. It has to to be replaced. I don't think this bike wants to leave me.
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these are classic engines and a lot of people desire them. as far as performance goes, just a slug. i had a 1974 fxe with manual foot that i added and was better on the highway but the ch would run circles around it. it doesn'ttake a lot to wake these up, biggest boost is gearing the tranny, it would smoke a bmw rs900, that was a funny story!
glad you got it ironed out.
glad you got it ironed out.