I really don't understand the op. None of it makes sense? Sounds like swapping parts without knowledge or a plan?

 

I would like to see a Dubai sheets in his current configuration. it definitely would make it easier to help him....

 

[QUOTE=0ldhippie;13871591]I really don't understand the op. None of it makes sense? Sounds like swapping parts without knowledge or a plan?[/QUO

Not sure what doesn't make sense. Had a 95" bb and heads installed several years ago with 204 cams. Eventually wanted more power - installed TW6g cams per recommendation of several builders. Pulled heads and had milled for proper compression (10.5:1) to get most of the Wood cams. Bike ran okay with this setup, but power was higher in rpm band than what I want. Changed exhausts, checked compression, had it tuned multiple times, etc. Could not get more torque down low. Last tune I had spent a lot of time trying to get most out of Supertrapp, and again it runs good when you get into the power band, but you have to get the revs up to get the power. After following advice of many experts, some of the parts obviously do not work well together, so I picked up another set of heads. These flow as well as my last set, but with smaller valves, should have better velocity and cylinder fill. I want torque moved to left on a Dyno sheet and simply asked what cams (with higher lift up to .600) would work well in a 95". Want torque to hit hard early and carry out as much as possible. Have two kids in college and don't have spare income to start over with whole new kit/heads.

I had posted Dyno sheets in past and every time it becomes a feeding frenzy on the tuner, so I would prefer not to go thru that again. I don't believe the low end torque issue is a tuning problem. I have had it tuned several times by respected tuners and torque came in late every time. I have been going thru changes step by step to fix problem and decided to try new heads and then cams. Not making changes with no knowledge or thought process - been researching a lot and talking to various experts.
I set the heads up for 10:1 compression for CR575 cams, but know there are plenty of cams that work well at the compression, so asked for feedback.

 

Phatboy,

There are several folks on this forum that know their chit and OldHippie is one of them, so hang in there and don't run him or the others off.

Your last post makes much more sense than the previous ones. What everyone is repetitively trying to tell you is that it is best to buy heads from a known entity that will go through an extensive process to first understand what you want power-wise and will help you select the right heads/cams/pipes etc the first time to avoid the expensive and frustrating experience that you have had and are now having.

Too late for that this time. You have the second set of heads, they are probably good ones, and you have excellent ancillary parts. Try the Woods cams and go from there.

Next time, make a few calls to several known porters/engine builders when contemplating a new build and select the one that you feel the best rapport with. You will likely have a good outcome on the first build. If not, you have someone who will work with you to get you what you want if the first build is lacking in some way.

Let us know how the Woods cams work in your new setup.

 

Phatboy,
Are you sure that you have true 10.5 static CR? The reason I ask is that would require very small chambers; the heads would have to be decked so much that the intake manifold would require modification to fit in the V of the motor. That is unless you have domed pistons, which you very well may have. Additionally, if you do have a true 10.5 static, corrected compression would be, IMHO, unacceptable for a street motor, something near 9.7 I would guess and CCP would be 200+psi. Having said that, with that much compression, the TW-6 should strike very early; that cam is no laggard by any measure with the right compression and torque should not be an issue.

I guess my point is that without the build details, i.e., chamber volume, head gasket thickness, piston dome volume, fuel management, etc., no one on this forum will be able to offer any meaningful advice. A dyno sheet would help and I would not be concerned about any comments on tune or tuner; half the people that make those comments don't know what they are talking about anyway.

I would like to know what your CCP is so, if you can pull a compression test and post the results; that would be a start.

 

Yeah I'm having a hard time with woods 6 cams (even with 40 overlap) not hitting pretty good around 2500 if static is really 10.5. That puts ccp around 203 (I like that number with a good tune). Going to something like CR 575 at 10-1 (195ccp) and smaller valves may move torque to the left but the headwork is mostly wasted as the cam won't carry to the right to really use it. I doubt ya would pick up any torque and ya lose HP for sure. Getting the heads set up for 575s and then asking what cam ya ought to go with is the really crazy part. I really am no expert but it seems all backwards to me? But there are smarter guys than me who swear by the mouse thing.

 

Show us your dyno sheets. all....

 

Current heads are 79cc with Ross 9.4:1 forged pistons. CCP is 199psi. When I run compression calculator at 600' above sea level with .030 HG, that puts me around 10.5:1 static. Not sure of deck height, so maybe pistons are sitting above deck to give me extra compression. Stock throttle body bored to 48mm.

Here are some dynos:

1st sheet is when I had 204 cams, 95", ported heads (87cc and .040 HG). Green line is with V&H Big Radius 2-1, Red line is with Bassani Prostreets after bad tune by shop in Houston, Blue line is Prostreets after getting re-tuned.

2nd sheet is after TW6g cams, milling heads to 79 cc, and installing Marelli injectors.

3rd sheet is TW6g cams with Supertrapp 2-1. This was different dyno/operator than previous sheets, so numbers can't be directly compared, but curves are similar. Power is strong when you get into powerband, I just want it sooner. Peak numbers are decent, but have to be above 3000 rpm to get over 80 ft lbs.

 

I sure don't have an answer. The dyno sheets illustrate why you want to move everything left. The problem I am having is that with the compression you have, worked heads and the TW-6 cams, you should see TQ much earlier. I have attached a dyno file from an early iteration of my 95" with SE204 cams, BigBoyz street ported heads, Python 3 2:1 pipe (Drag Specialties "house" pipe from V&H = Propipe) and CCP about 190psi. As you can see, this motor is delivering more TQ and earlier than any of the motor you previously dynod; that's what I don't understand.

I understand what you want and your frustration, completely. The TW6 cam is know to hit hard and early and I don't think you are going to find a replacement cam that will hit any harder and any earlier. I am thinking your heads are the problem and that is where I would be looking. I would be talking to Scott at Hillside Cycles who is a Woods fan and has built many 95"/98" motors around the TW6 cam.

 

Overall, I liked the 204 cams - strong throttle response mid/upper rpm's and on highway, but were a little soft on bottom end. That's what got me looking at the Wood 6 cams. When I originally did the 95bb and heads, the heads were supposed to be milled .020 to give me a static CR of 9.8:1 with .040 HG. When I pulled the heads to set them up for the TW6 cams, I had them cc'd and found they were 87 cc's. They should have been closer to 83 cc's after they were milled .020. The guy who did the heads originally never cc'd - just based compression off a stock 85cc head. These heads were obviously oversized from HD. That was probably the cause of the soft low end, as compression was good bit lower than advertised. When I learned that about the head volume, I was already commited to the TW6 cams. Looking back, I wish I had just milled the heads to give me 9.8:1 and kept the 204's. I think I would have been happy with that setup and never looked back.

I agree on the TW6 setup - everything looks like I should have a strong low end torque, but it's just not there. And it is not just on paper. I am hoping these new heads get it running like it should. I have been thinking about holding off new cams until I install heads and ride the bike with the TW6 to see if torque improves. I did lose confidence in the TW6 cam, however, and figured I would change out to CR575, so I set the compression lower anticipating a cam swap. Not sure how well the TW6 will run at 10:1? Seems like most recommend at least 10.2:1 or higher.