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Crankcase Venting for TC, Is it necessary?

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Old Jan 22, 2022 | 07:46 AM
  #11  
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first of all, there are millions x millions of engines and billions x billions of hours these engines happily carry on with NO ill issues UNTIL their service life is reached! hummmm??? why do you think the mfg's put time/mileage limits on warranty except where big brother steps in.
MOST of the vapor, you guessed it, WATER. you do know water injection is used to boost power even in fighter jets, so why is it harmful???
old 60's and back just dumped to the ground and epa and research data showed environmental issues. the issue is not the data but stupidity. if you ever lived in cali back before emission were put in place, it was smog city, so who hurts, everyone! ever drove into chicago??? 90 miles out, it looks like tires burning on the horizon!!!!
i worked on industrial engines for 47 years and they ran 24/7/365 full bore beating out 1000's of horse power, the average life expectancy was 5 years before over-haul, did they ever lose power, well nope. some engines injected the vapor into the exhaust, even some cars did that, but the cats stopped that. what little oil does make it to the cyl would be upper cyl lube, the reason i think my ch has nearly220k miles, burned 1qt/1k miles.
the issue is stupidity, you cannot beat a dead horse in standing up, so buy a new horse.
true there are tree huggers and go to the extreme but a properly designed engine within its service life poses zero threats, it is stupidity that makes people make mosquito sprayer out of them. it is like second hand smoke, keep it to yourself!!!
in cali, if you get flagged into DOT inspection bay, they will creeper under your truck and if you drop more than three drops of oil in x minutes, you will not go in, sooooooo if every one dropped oil, it would not be long, your ground water will be affected.
 
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Old Jan 22, 2022 | 09:07 AM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by bustert
first of all, there are millions x millions of engines and billions x billions of hours these engines happily carry on with NO ill issues UNTIL their service life is reached! hummmm??? why do you think the mfg's put time/mileage limits on warranty except where big brother steps in.
MOST of the vapor, you guessed it, WATER. you do know water injection is used to boost power even in fighter jets, so why is it harmful???
old 60's and back just dumped to the ground and epa and research data showed environmental issues. the issue is not the data but stupidity. if you ever lived in cali back before emission were put in place, it was smog city, so who hurts, everyone! ever drove into chicago??? 90 miles out, it looks like tires burning on the horizon!!!!
i worked on industrial engines for 47 years and they ran 24/7/365 full bore beating out 1000's of horse power, the average life expectancy was 5 years before over-haul, did they ever lose power, well nope. some engines injected the vapor into the exhaust, even some cars did that, but the cats stopped that. what little oil does make it to the cyl would be upper cyl lube, the reason i think my ch has nearly220k miles, burned 1qt/1k miles.
the issue is stupidity, you cannot beat a dead horse in standing up, so buy a new horse.
true there are tree huggers and go to the extreme but a properly designed engine within its service life poses zero threats, it is stupidity that makes people make mosquito sprayer out of them. it is like second hand smoke, keep it to yourself!!!
in cali, if you get flagged into DOT inspection bay, they will creeper under your truck and if you drop more than three drops of oil in x minutes, you will not go in, sooooooo if every one dropped oil, it would not be long, your ground water will be affected.
Save your treehuggin' speech for those dumb enough to buy it. You obviously haven't seen the carbon buildup and the damage caused by it.
Like I always say, if you don't like the way I drive, stay the fk off the sidewalk.
Around these parts we take violating our civil liberties seriously. Detaining someone without probable cause is a violation of those rights. Your DOT inspection station wouldn't last long here. Laws are made by the people for the people. If CA wants !aws that allow the feds to interfere in their lives and stomp on their personal liberties, that's their call. Don't expect the rest of us to follow suit.
But then the people of CA probably don't have much of a choice given how deep they're into the feds being it's a bankrupt state and has been for quite some time. Of course laws that stifle the economy will do that.
Your oil burner that produces a whopping 57 hp is no example of these machines today, btw.

​​​​​



 

Last edited by 60Gunner; Jan 22, 2022 at 11:34 AM.
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Old Jan 22, 2022 | 08:08 PM
  #13  
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I need some popcorn..
 
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 08:09 AM
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and that is why people die
there are very few rights in the human chain, mostly privileges.
you do know, i have a right to punch you in the nose, BUT it ends the micro-second before contact!!!
forest gump once said "you cannot fix stupid" !
tree hugger i am not, the argument was is it detrimental!!!!
statement was "in a properly operating machine" , if your ride is carboning up, you have MORE issues than you choose to believe.
yep, do you want double butter with that?? mr. max
vasoline for his!
 
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by bustert
and that is why people die
there are very few rights in the human chain, mostly privileges.
you do know, i have a right to punch you in the nose, BUT it ends the micro-second before contact!!!
I disagree. There are many god given rights in the human chain. You have the right to punch me in the nose. I have the right to defend myself once that punch is coming and that right doesn't stop if you stop right before my nose or not. My right is to stop an attack. Play stupid games.....

What are my rights vs CARB? Who cares. I live in Ilinois. Water injection for short field take offs. Absolutely. BUT the amount of water to cool intake tract so more boost and timing can come into play is not what we are getting with this oily mist we are putting into the intake tract of our Vtwins. You can state it is just water, but if it is just water. What is the problem with breather externally to atmoshere?

Best thing for performance is to breath externally outside of the engine. If one was worried about environment. Breath into a catch can. Adding more places for the engine to breath is not necessary on 99% of the engines out on the street. By just adding a hole into the fill cap can mess with engine vacuum and can hurt performance because of aerated oil and ring seal. Remember Fueling had a device when TC first came out. It flashed in the pan and no one needed it. Then it came back around with the M8's and all of a sudden it became the new rage and everyone has to have it now. M8's never sumped because of not enough volume in the breather passages to expel the needed air. They sump because of bad designed pumps, leaking piston jets and too little air volume in the oil tank that caused high pressure fluctuations.

If one had to have a hose on their filler cap. IMO it would be better to route it to a sealed closed container. This would give the air more volume over the oil in the tank, and would lower pressure fluctuations.

 
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 10:45 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by hrdtail78
I disagree. There are many god given rights in the human chain. You have the right to punch me in the nose. I have the right to defend myself once that punch is coming and that right doesn't stop if you stop right before my nose or not. My right is to stop an attack. Play stupid games.....

What are my rights vs CARB? Who cares. I live in Ilinois. Water injection for short field take offs. Absolutely. BUT the amount of water to cool intake tract so more boost and timing can come into play is not what we are getting with this oily mist we are putting into the intake tract of our Vtwins. You can state it is just water, but if it is just water. What is the problem with breather externally to atmoshere?

Best thing for performance is to breath externally outside of the engine. If one was worried about environment. Breath into a catch can. Adding more places for the engine to breath is not necessary on 99% of the engines out on the street. By just adding a hole into the fill cap can mess with engine vacuum and can hurt performance because of aerated oil and ring seal. Remember Fueling had a device when TC first came out. It flashed in the pan and no one needed it. Then it came back around with the M8's and all of a sudden it became the new rage and everyone has to have it now. M8's never sumped because of not enough volume in the breather passages to expel the needed air. They sump because of bad designed pumps, leaking piston jets and too little air volume in the oil tank that caused high pressure fluctuations.

If one had to have a hose on their filler cap. IMO it would be better to route it to a sealed closed container. This would give the air more volume over the oil in the tank, and would lower pressure fluctuations.
I agree 110% and have always said that putting a breather in the oil tank cap or the line running to it is a bad idea. I haven't figured out exactly where or how to improve on the twin cam breathers except to vent to atmosphere. It may very well be sufficient as is. I haven't had a issue as of yet. The new style stamped housing is definitely an improvement.
The sportster one on the other hand leaves a lot to be desired. It's a cheap plastic one piece housing that can't be opened or the actual valve replaced. The plastic housing is prone to warping under the high heat in the heads thus interfering with the valve opening and closing. I literally blew out 3 sets of rocker cover seals and had a head gasket weeping on the dyno due to excessive crankcase pressure before coming up with the above breather mod that worked great btw.
Bustert is also very much aware of the very extensive dyno testing Hammer Performance did that showed with absolute certainty a loss of 2-4 hp across the entire rpm range when venting into the intake. 100% of the time!! Literally hundreds of pulls were done on their test mule.
The carbon build up it causes as well as the lowering of the octane level is also very well documented. Both increase the risk of detonation.
If you live in the Republic of kAli, sucks to be you. But don't try justifying the stupidity of this practice by saying it's harmless or that the environment will be destroyed if one choses to fix this problem by venting to atmosphere. Way too much evidence says otherwise. Only brainwashed treehuggers believe this nonsense pedaled by the EPA.

I do think venting the twin cam from the cam chest would work just as well at the very least and have the added benefits if easy accessibility for cleaning and replacing as well as a cosmetic improvement by not having unsightly hoses dangling from the heads.
Besides the KVP38 which is a 3/8" breather valve, Hayden makes a 1/2" one, the KVP12. A reed valve would be better. They are pricier and do make noise tho. There are a number I've indentified both inline and hard mounted that I think might help keep a more consistent vacuum in the crankcase of the twin cam tho.



 

Last edited by 60Gunner; Jan 23, 2022 at 11:14 AM.
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 01:26 PM
  #17  
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The whole idea of venting a crankcase has to do with windage created by the stroke. Longer the stroke, more windage created for each crank throw. If you look in the pits of any type of auto racing, you will see the engines have vacuum pumps on them to evacuate the crankcase as it creates free horsepower by getting rid of the parasitic drag created by that windage. The water/ oil vapor not going through the combustion chamber is an added plus.
 
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 04:00 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by hrdtail78
M8
They sump because of bad designed pumps, leaking piston jets and too little air volume in the oil tank that caused high pressure fluctuations.
They sump because HD screwed up the crankcase oil pickup. Compare it to a TC. The first oil pump had issues with the pressure relief valve tho.. It wasn't updated to correct for sumping.
 
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Old Jan 23, 2022 | 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Slingshot383
The whole idea of venting a crankcase has to do with windage created by the stroke. Longer the stroke, more windage created for each crank throw. If you look in the pits of any type of auto racing, you will see the engines have vacuum pumps on them to evacuate the crankcase as it creates free horsepower by getting rid of the parasitic drag created by that windage. The water/ oil vapor not going through the combustion chamber is an added plus.
Windage? With a tray and dry sump?
 
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Old Jan 24, 2022 | 07:52 AM
  #20  
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Stock 103 don't need no stinkin crank vent. IMO, what will help has been said already, bypass stuffing oil & water mist through you intake. Now if your going "BIG" a rethink may be necessary.
 
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