Carb guy trapped in a fuel injected world.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2009
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Carb guy trapped in a fuel injected world.
Ok, guys my little brother just bought a 1998 95th anniversary edition classic, the bike is fuel injected....
, it has a stage 3 kit, cam, and injectors, when the bike is cold, its unridable, its so fat, it breaks up, until its hot, then when its hot, it seems lean, like the old lean pop thru the carb, So how would i go about correcting this, and can anyone give me a crash course on this fuel injection set up, thanks chad.
, it has a stage 3 kit, cam, and injectors, when the bike is cold, its unridable, its so fat, it breaks up, until its hot, then when its hot, it seems lean, like the old lean pop thru the carb, So how would i go about correcting this, and can anyone give me a crash course on this fuel injection set up, thanks chad.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From:
If it is a Road King..
1998 is an evo engine with an M and M fuel injection.
stage 3 ?..HD went back and forth changing names..is stage 3 fuel injectors (red??), air cleaner/back plate, some cam change, pipes..all the stages(1,2,3) required a reflash of ECU...
you can read codes thru speedo..most common #56 which is a back fire..
BUT
what you are describing reads like an engine temp. sensor..it is in the front chimney center square hole..easy fix and about a $95 part..minimal tools..
Basically bike is getting wrong engine temp. info. and is then sending out wrong fuel ratios..drowning and starving fuel at same time with no reason.
1998 is an evo engine with an M and M fuel injection.
stage 3 ?..HD went back and forth changing names..is stage 3 fuel injectors (red??), air cleaner/back plate, some cam change, pipes..all the stages(1,2,3) required a reflash of ECU...
you can read codes thru speedo..most common #56 which is a back fire..
BUT
what you are describing reads like an engine temp. sensor..it is in the front chimney center square hole..easy fix and about a $95 part..minimal tools..
Basically bike is getting wrong engine temp. info. and is then sending out wrong fuel ratios..drowning and starving fuel at same time with no reason.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,086
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From:
code reading:
does this work for you?:1-turn ignition key switch to ignition and then turn off 1 second after fuel pump stops.
2.repeat #1 again..remember 1 second after pump stops
3.turn ignition key switch to ignition and wait about 8 seconds for a bunch of flashing of the check engine light
it will then stop for 2 seconds..get ready... these are the codes you must count:
it will slowly flash 1,2,3,5....there is NO 4....this is the first digit of the 2 digit code ..so it can only be 1,2,3,5 __ __
then a 2 second pause...then you will get second digit of the 2 digit code..it can only be 1,2,3,4,5,6
remember after the complete 2 digit code is given you will go back to the rapid flash sequence..
there are a total of 15 codes available with this procedure
examples
52,53,54,55 bad news ECM replacement
56 crank/cam sensor
11 throttle sensor
12 barometric 14 engine temp. sensor 15 intake temp sensor
23 and 32 are injectors front/rear
24 coil
33 fuel pump relay--in this case you would not hear the pump but instead waited 3 seconds after the on / off sequence
does this work for you?:1-turn ignition key switch to ignition and then turn off 1 second after fuel pump stops.
2.repeat #1 again..remember 1 second after pump stops
3.turn ignition key switch to ignition and wait about 8 seconds for a bunch of flashing of the check engine light
it will then stop for 2 seconds..get ready... these are the codes you must count:
it will slowly flash 1,2,3,5....there is NO 4....this is the first digit of the 2 digit code ..so it can only be 1,2,3,5 __ __
then a 2 second pause...then you will get second digit of the 2 digit code..it can only be 1,2,3,4,5,6
remember after the complete 2 digit code is given you will go back to the rapid flash sequence..
there are a total of 15 codes available with this procedure
examples
52,53,54,55 bad news ECM replacement
56 crank/cam sensor
11 throttle sensor
12 barometric 14 engine temp. sensor 15 intake temp sensor
23 and 32 are injectors front/rear
24 coil
33 fuel pump relay--in this case you would not hear the pump but instead waited 3 seconds after the on / off sequence
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,086
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From:
a cut and paste:
Mkizer, 1997 Bagger, and Phat 96--
In your individual quests for information on the Magneto Marelli FI system, I offer this procedure to set "cold idle" as something you may want to file away in the future as and if needed. If you already have this info please ignore.
Kudos for this to "Bob", the signatory in the following procedure:
regards,
V2
To all who have idle issues with their MM EFI:
Here is a down-and-dirty way to set COLD idle quality.
Overview:
Power Commanders can only affect A/F once the engine warms up to the point (280+) where the ECM releases control to the base map. Also time has some influence but that's not important to this proceedure.
The Throttle Position sensor, (TP) when rotated, will shift the entire A/F map, including idle, richer or leaner whether hot or cold. So we will use the TP to adjust cold idle quality when first fired up. Then use the PC to adjust hot idle A/F once the engine gets fully warmed up and the ECM makes PC access available.
Procedure:
1) THIS MUST BE DONE WITH A BIKE THAT IS COLD, AS IN NOT STARTED FOR THE DAY YET.
2) Remove/dig out the epoxy from the throttle position sensor screws. Then loosen top and bottom screws so you can rotate it.
3) What you are going to do is quickly adjust the TP sensor to get the engine to run at its best as soon as you fire up the motor. This must be done as quickly as possible as the engine temperature will start generating immediately and that will be a problem if you run the engine too long before getting the adjustment right.
4) Once you have got the engine to "be happy" running cold, re-tighten the TP screws. Remove the ECM fuse or disconnect the battery for 5 minutes to reset the idle stepper motor idle loop.
5) After setting the cold idle for best/happiest running, the hot idle speed may need to be readjusted. Before readjusting the hot idle speed ride the bike for 10-15 mins at highway speeds to make sure the engine is COMPLETELY up to operating temp.
6) Chances are good the A/F tuning will need to be readjusted because the baseline it worked from changed. Sometimes, depending on the engine mods, a bike will run better with a ZERO map in the Power Commander than the one used before the change. This happens because the procedure shifts the entire A/F mapping usually to the richer side and that helps a lot. However, there will also be areas that become too rich so it will pay to get it properly tuned. Unfortunately the procedure to get the cold idle quality good affects the hot idle speed and general mapping.
Hope this helps, and the above assumes all the MM system is in running (no dead sensors, wires, excess oil buildup in the TB, etc) condition and simply needs tweeking.
This procedure has worked for me for the past 8 years of tuning, but there are no garantees implied or expressed.
Hope this helps, Bob
__________________
'96 FLSTN Stage 3 / '96 FLHT "BargeGlide" w/ tourpak and lowers
Mkizer, 1997 Bagger, and Phat 96--
In your individual quests for information on the Magneto Marelli FI system, I offer this procedure to set "cold idle" as something you may want to file away in the future as and if needed. If you already have this info please ignore.
Kudos for this to "Bob", the signatory in the following procedure:
regards,
V2
To all who have idle issues with their MM EFI:
Here is a down-and-dirty way to set COLD idle quality.
Overview:
Power Commanders can only affect A/F once the engine warms up to the point (280+) where the ECM releases control to the base map. Also time has some influence but that's not important to this proceedure.
The Throttle Position sensor, (TP) when rotated, will shift the entire A/F map, including idle, richer or leaner whether hot or cold. So we will use the TP to adjust cold idle quality when first fired up. Then use the PC to adjust hot idle A/F once the engine gets fully warmed up and the ECM makes PC access available.
Procedure:
1) THIS MUST BE DONE WITH A BIKE THAT IS COLD, AS IN NOT STARTED FOR THE DAY YET.
2) Remove/dig out the epoxy from the throttle position sensor screws. Then loosen top and bottom screws so you can rotate it.
3) What you are going to do is quickly adjust the TP sensor to get the engine to run at its best as soon as you fire up the motor. This must be done as quickly as possible as the engine temperature will start generating immediately and that will be a problem if you run the engine too long before getting the adjustment right.
4) Once you have got the engine to "be happy" running cold, re-tighten the TP screws. Remove the ECM fuse or disconnect the battery for 5 minutes to reset the idle stepper motor idle loop.
5) After setting the cold idle for best/happiest running, the hot idle speed may need to be readjusted. Before readjusting the hot idle speed ride the bike for 10-15 mins at highway speeds to make sure the engine is COMPLETELY up to operating temp.
6) Chances are good the A/F tuning will need to be readjusted because the baseline it worked from changed. Sometimes, depending on the engine mods, a bike will run better with a ZERO map in the Power Commander than the one used before the change. This happens because the procedure shifts the entire A/F mapping usually to the richer side and that helps a lot. However, there will also be areas that become too rich so it will pay to get it properly tuned. Unfortunately the procedure to get the cold idle quality good affects the hot idle speed and general mapping.
Hope this helps, and the above assumes all the MM system is in running (no dead sensors, wires, excess oil buildup in the TB, etc) condition and simply needs tweeking.
This procedure has worked for me for the past 8 years of tuning, but there are no garantees implied or expressed.
Hope this helps, Bob
__________________
'96 FLSTN Stage 3 / '96 FLHT "BargeGlide" w/ tourpak and lowers
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 5,081
Likes: 2,159
From: Ohio
Don't overlook a leaking intake seal, it is so easy to point to efi for the problem, when my engine was stock with the stage 3, it gurgled fuel when in cold start up when outside temp was cold and trying to ride it, so that is common. The stage 3 has bigger injectors and the equivelant of a EV-27 and cold mode is dumping the fuel.
You have a cam sensor, pull the cam cover and see how bad the sensor is melted, it tells the ecm when to fire the coil and can cause the breakup and pop threw the intake. This sensor is known to melt and would head to the cam sensor first.
A lean condition or irrattic runability can be caused by the engine position sensor, it tells the injectors when to fire by ecm, the ecm controls how long they stay open. It is around $75.00 and I have a used sensor to use as a test if needed to keep from throwing money away.
The engine temperature sensor located in the center of the front head, The ets controls cold startup fuel and a common failure - the ets is like an auto choke on a carb, it tells the ecm to add fuel when cold and releases control when the engine reaches temperature. It won't always throw a code when it fails but it useually makes the engine stay running rich or idle becomes irrattic.
You are going to hear "Sheeetcan" the system, it works great when it works but becomes unfixable when it doesn't.
You have a cam sensor, pull the cam cover and see how bad the sensor is melted, it tells the ecm when to fire the coil and can cause the breakup and pop threw the intake. This sensor is known to melt and would head to the cam sensor first.
A lean condition or irrattic runability can be caused by the engine position sensor, it tells the injectors when to fire by ecm, the ecm controls how long they stay open. It is around $75.00 and I have a used sensor to use as a test if needed to keep from throwing money away.
The engine temperature sensor located in the center of the front head, The ets controls cold startup fuel and a common failure - the ets is like an auto choke on a carb, it tells the ecm to add fuel when cold and releases control when the engine reaches temperature. It won't always throw a code when it fails but it useually makes the engine stay running rich or idle becomes irrattic.
You are going to hear "Sheeetcan" the system, it works great when it works but becomes unfixable when it doesn't.
Last edited by 1997bagger; Feb 8, 2010 at 09:56 PM.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,086
Likes: 1,128
From:
Don't overlook a leaking intake seal, it is so easy to point to efi for the problem, when my engine was stock with the stage 3, it gurgled fuel when in cold start up when outside temp was cold and trying to ride it, so that is common. The stage 3 has bigger injectors and the equivelant of a EV-27 and cold mode is dumping the fuel.
You have a cam sensor, pull the cam cover and see how bad the sensor is melted, it tells the ecm when to fire the coil and can cause the breakup and pop threw the carb. This sensor is known to melt and would head to the cam sensor first.
A lean condition or irrattic runability can be caused by the engine position sensor, it tells the injectors when to fire by ecm, the ecm controls how long they stay open. It is around $75.00 and I have a used sensor to use as a test if needed to keep from throwing money away.
The engine temperature sensor located in the center of the front head, The ets controls cold startup fuel and a common failure - the ets is like an auto choke on a carb, it tells the ecm to add fuel when cold and releases control when the engine reaches temperature. It won't always throw a code when it fails but it useually makes the engine stay running rich or idle becomes irrattic.
You are going to hear "Sheeetcan" the system, it works great when it works but becomes unfixable when it doesn't.
You have a cam sensor, pull the cam cover and see how bad the sensor is melted, it tells the ecm when to fire the coil and can cause the breakup and pop threw the carb. This sensor is known to melt and would head to the cam sensor first.
A lean condition or irrattic runability can be caused by the engine position sensor, it tells the injectors when to fire by ecm, the ecm controls how long they stay open. It is around $75.00 and I have a used sensor to use as a test if needed to keep from throwing money away.
The engine temperature sensor located in the center of the front head, The ets controls cold startup fuel and a common failure - the ets is like an auto choke on a carb, it tells the ecm to add fuel when cold and releases control when the engine reaches temperature. It won't always throw a code when it fails but it useually makes the engine stay running rich or idle becomes irrattic.
You are going to hear "Sheeetcan" the system, it works great when it works but becomes unfixable when it doesn't.
this is the temp. sensor link.
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touri...r-install.html
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Joe Kucinski
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 8,201
Likes: 3,089
From: NW AR
Sorry I don't know about your particular EFI system, but I seem to recall that around that time was a changeover, and the later ones are tuneable with the right gizmo. I do know a bit about EFI in general, having built 3 systems including the one on the Sporty, and it sounds like your fuel maps are off and/or your cylinder head temp sensor is bad. Is there some way to pull the codes with flashing lights?
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Posts: 6,086
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From:
1997bagger named the most common things with that model of fuel injection and year/model..
Not your problem but the only other thing that is fuel related are the two fuel hoses from the tank..dealer is very very expensive..about $340 for both total....J and P cycle has a braided set-up that is about $150 for both..total...
now you are loaded with information.
Not your problem but the only other thing that is fuel related are the two fuel hoses from the tank..dealer is very very expensive..about $340 for both total....J and P cycle has a braided set-up that is about $150 for both..total...
now you are loaded with information.