Starter Preference
Road Master
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 899
Likes: 10
>>the other day I had to boost the bike off the running car battery and it whirreled rigt up<<
Keep in mind when you boost off a vehicle that's running you're tying into that vehicle's charging system. And that can hurt a Harley’s electronics. Think about it. For that brief moment after your bikes starts (and you remove the jumper cable) you're getting twice the amount of charging your system can stand. Always boost off a vehicle that isn't running.
Generally, almost all the problems with starting can be traced back to a weak battery. A 1.4 type starter is more than enough for a stock Evo as long as you have a battery with a sufficient amount of CCAs (Cold Cranking Amps.) Because we don't run magnetos anymore today's batteries must do double duty. They not only have to spin the motor they also have to provide the punch to fire the coil.
When you hit the starter button and it just clicks, or turns the motor over just slightly and stops, it's a weak battery. If it bangs, growls, or clanks, it's a problem with how your starter jack shaft is engaging the ring gear in the primary.
When you shut down a Harley it always comes to rest right before a compression stroke. And that's where it sits until you try to start it again. So as soon as you hit the starter button you encounter the resistance of a compression stroke right off the bat. Some folks with "big inch motors" find they have to put the bike into gear and roll it backwards a bit so the starting system has a bit of momentum before encountering the compression of the motor's power stroke. In lieu of that some will install compression releases.
You need at least 250 to 300 CCAs to reliably start a cold Evo. (Not cold in the sense of dead of winter, just that first start of the day.) I once tried a battery that was 230 CCAs and it turned the motor over okay but just didn't have the spare amperage to fire off the coil.
But no matter what it says on your battery when new they all degrade over time. (They also degrade sitting on a dealer's shelf, and who knows how long that's been.) In the lead acid batteries the lead plates get eaten up, in the glass mat ones the electrolyte sulfides. So even though your volt meter reads 12 volts or better you still don't know how many amps you're really getting. Newer stock bikes (especially fuel injected ones) draw a lot of current during start up with lights, fuel pumps, and whatnot coming on line at the same time. Those of us with carburetors have less of an initial load but still most folks wire those bikes so they'll start without the lights being on.
If the bike more or less starts normally, except once in a while the starter bangs, clanks, or grinds it's your starter jack shaft. Or more so an alignment problem. If you're running a dry clutch (like with an open belt drive) you can ever so slightly shim the starter until you find the sweet spot. With a wet clutch (and a closed primary) you need a tight seal there, but you can still get some adjustment by pushing up or down on the starter and tightening one bolt a tad more than the other.
There are some who sell aftermarket jack shafts that are supposed to have a better angle of grind but those are really for open belt drives where the lack of a front motor pulley compensator removes any and all slack from the system. (That’s one thing a compensator does besides smooth out the transfer of power between the motor and transmission, it gives the jack shaft a bit of “give” so it engages easier.)
I guess I took the long way around it, but essentially all other things being equal, it’s the battery . . .
Keep in mind when you boost off a vehicle that's running you're tying into that vehicle's charging system. And that can hurt a Harley’s electronics. Think about it. For that brief moment after your bikes starts (and you remove the jumper cable) you're getting twice the amount of charging your system can stand. Always boost off a vehicle that isn't running.
Generally, almost all the problems with starting can be traced back to a weak battery. A 1.4 type starter is more than enough for a stock Evo as long as you have a battery with a sufficient amount of CCAs (Cold Cranking Amps.) Because we don't run magnetos anymore today's batteries must do double duty. They not only have to spin the motor they also have to provide the punch to fire the coil.
When you hit the starter button and it just clicks, or turns the motor over just slightly and stops, it's a weak battery. If it bangs, growls, or clanks, it's a problem with how your starter jack shaft is engaging the ring gear in the primary.
When you shut down a Harley it always comes to rest right before a compression stroke. And that's where it sits until you try to start it again. So as soon as you hit the starter button you encounter the resistance of a compression stroke right off the bat. Some folks with "big inch motors" find they have to put the bike into gear and roll it backwards a bit so the starting system has a bit of momentum before encountering the compression of the motor's power stroke. In lieu of that some will install compression releases.
You need at least 250 to 300 CCAs to reliably start a cold Evo. (Not cold in the sense of dead of winter, just that first start of the day.) I once tried a battery that was 230 CCAs and it turned the motor over okay but just didn't have the spare amperage to fire off the coil.
But no matter what it says on your battery when new they all degrade over time. (They also degrade sitting on a dealer's shelf, and who knows how long that's been.) In the lead acid batteries the lead plates get eaten up, in the glass mat ones the electrolyte sulfides. So even though your volt meter reads 12 volts or better you still don't know how many amps you're really getting. Newer stock bikes (especially fuel injected ones) draw a lot of current during start up with lights, fuel pumps, and whatnot coming on line at the same time. Those of us with carburetors have less of an initial load but still most folks wire those bikes so they'll start without the lights being on.
If the bike more or less starts normally, except once in a while the starter bangs, clanks, or grinds it's your starter jack shaft. Or more so an alignment problem. If you're running a dry clutch (like with an open belt drive) you can ever so slightly shim the starter until you find the sweet spot. With a wet clutch (and a closed primary) you need a tight seal there, but you can still get some adjustment by pushing up or down on the starter and tightening one bolt a tad more than the other.
There are some who sell aftermarket jack shafts that are supposed to have a better angle of grind but those are really for open belt drives where the lack of a front motor pulley compensator removes any and all slack from the system. (That’s one thing a compensator does besides smooth out the transfer of power between the motor and transmission, it gives the jack shaft a bit of “give” so it engages easier.)
I guess I took the long way around it, but essentially all other things being equal, it’s the battery . . .
Last edited by NickD; Nov 7, 2010 at 12:05 PM.
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,205
Likes: 18
From: SE Michigan
Wow!
>>the other day I had to boost the bike off the running car battery and it whirreled rigt up<<
Keep in mind when you boost off a vehicle that's running you're tying into that vehicle's charging system. And that can hurt a Harley’s electronics. Think about it. For that brief moment after your bikes starts (and you remove the jumper cable) you're getting twice the amount of charging your system can stand. Always boost off a vehicle that isn't running.
Generally, almost all the problems with starting can be traced back to a weak battery. A 1.4 type starter is more than enough for a stock Evo as long as you have a battery with a sufficient amount of CCAs (Cold Cranking Amps.) Because we don't run magnetos anymore today's batteries must do double duty. They not only have to spin the motor they also have to provide the punch to fire the coil.
When you hit the starter button and it just clicks, or turns the motor over just slightly and stops, it's a weak battery. If it bangs, growls, or clanks, it's a problem with how your starter jack shaft is engaging the ring gear in the primary.
When you shut down a Harley it always comes to rest right before a compression stroke. And that's where it sits until you try to start it again. So as soon as you hit the starter button you encounter the resistance of a compression stroke right off the bat. Some folks with "big inch motors" find they have to put the bike into gear and roll it backwards a bit so the starting system has a bit of momentum before encountering the compression of the motor's power stroke. In lieu of that some will install compression releases.
You need at least 250 to 300 CCAs to reliably start a cold Evo. (Not cold in the sense of dead of winter, just that first start of the day.) I once tried a battery that was 230 CCAs and it turned the motor over okay but just didn't have the spare amperage to fire off the coil.
But no matter what it says on your battery when new they all degrade over time. (They also degrade sitting on a dealer's shelf, and who knows how long that's been.) In the lead acid batteries the lead plates get eaten up, in the glass mat ones the electrolyte sulfides. So even though your volt meter reads 12 volts or better you still don't know how many amps you're really getting. Newer stock bikes (especially fuel injected ones) draw a lot of current during start up with lights, fuel pumps, and whatnot coming on line at the same time. Those of us with carburetors have less of an initial load but still most folks wire those bikes so they'll start without the lights being on.
If the bike more or less starts normally, except once in a while the starter bangs, clanks, or grinds it's your starter jack shaft. Or more so an alignment problem. If you're running a dry clutch (like with an open belt drive) you can ever so slightly shim the starter until you find the sweet spot. With a wet clutch (and a closed primary) you need a tight seal there, but you can still get some adjustment by pushing up or down on the starter and tightening one bolt a tad more than the other.
There are some who sell aftermarket jack shafts that are supposed to have a better angle of grind but those are really for open belt drives where the lack of a front motor pulley compensator removes any and all slack from the system. (That’s one thing a compensator does besides smooth out the transfer of power between the motor and transmission, it gives the jack shaft a bit of “give” so it engages easier.)
I guess I took the long way around it, but essentially all other things being equal, it’s the battery . . .
Keep in mind when you boost off a vehicle that's running you're tying into that vehicle's charging system. And that can hurt a Harley’s electronics. Think about it. For that brief moment after your bikes starts (and you remove the jumper cable) you're getting twice the amount of charging your system can stand. Always boost off a vehicle that isn't running.
Generally, almost all the problems with starting can be traced back to a weak battery. A 1.4 type starter is more than enough for a stock Evo as long as you have a battery with a sufficient amount of CCAs (Cold Cranking Amps.) Because we don't run magnetos anymore today's batteries must do double duty. They not only have to spin the motor they also have to provide the punch to fire the coil.
When you hit the starter button and it just clicks, or turns the motor over just slightly and stops, it's a weak battery. If it bangs, growls, or clanks, it's a problem with how your starter jack shaft is engaging the ring gear in the primary.
When you shut down a Harley it always comes to rest right before a compression stroke. And that's where it sits until you try to start it again. So as soon as you hit the starter button you encounter the resistance of a compression stroke right off the bat. Some folks with "big inch motors" find they have to put the bike into gear and roll it backwards a bit so the starting system has a bit of momentum before encountering the compression of the motor's power stroke. In lieu of that some will install compression releases.
You need at least 250 to 300 CCAs to reliably start a cold Evo. (Not cold in the sense of dead of winter, just that first start of the day.) I once tried a battery that was 230 CCAs and it turned the motor over okay but just didn't have the spare amperage to fire off the coil.
But no matter what it says on your battery when new they all degrade over time. (They also degrade sitting on a dealer's shelf, and who knows how long that's been.) In the lead acid batteries the lead plates get eaten up, in the glass mat ones the electrolyte sulfides. So even though your volt meter reads 12 volts or better you still don't know how many amps you're really getting. Newer stock bikes (especially fuel injected ones) draw a lot of current during start up with lights, fuel pumps, and whatnot coming on line at the same time. Those of us with carburetors have less of an initial load but still most folks wire those bikes so they'll start without the lights being on.
If the bike more or less starts normally, except once in a while the starter bangs, clanks, or grinds it's your starter jack shaft. Or more so an alignment problem. If you're running a dry clutch (like with an open belt drive) you can ever so slightly shim the starter until you find the sweet spot. With a wet clutch (and a closed primary) you need a tight seal there, but you can still get some adjustment by pushing up or down on the starter and tightening one bolt a tad more than the other.
There are some who sell aftermarket jack shafts that are supposed to have a better angle of grind but those are really for open belt drives where the lack of a front motor pulley compensator removes any and all slack from the system. (That’s one thing a compensator does besides smooth out the transfer of power between the motor and transmission, it gives the jack shaft a bit of “give” so it engages easier.)
I guess I took the long way around it, but essentially all other things being equal, it’s the battery . . .
Thread Starter
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,039
Likes: 11
From: Northern Ontario
Thanks Nick that is the very good info you took the time to share. Never thought of the running vehicle boost that way before and will keep in mind and defintely pass it along.
Today while reading a dreaded click thread I had a thought and went out and pulled the 3 screw cover off the solanoid ( at least I think its referred as that ) and found that the copper washer contact was well pitted as well as the two flat points the washer contacts, I cleaned all 3 surfaces up best I could with a dremmel wheel and enery cloth and the starter seemed to be much better. On my old 76 ironhead we use to flip the washer over to give a new contact surface.
So after giving alot of thought toward a new regulator and since the battery was replaced this year ( hopefully not on the parts shelf for past couple years ) I'm thinking this starter or starter kit for sure , possibly going to the 38 amp charging system as my bike does have alot of lightes stereo etc , the reason I'm thinking 38 amp compared to my now present 32 amp (with its new stator ) is a new regulator would cost me probably a 100 bux and the charging system may or may not be strong enough for the old girls demands where as for how much more I can switch to 38 amp and I think definately charging output would be more than adequate.
What do you guys think? As well any suggestions on where to buy a 38 amp system , is one better than another?
Today while reading a dreaded click thread I had a thought and went out and pulled the 3 screw cover off the solanoid ( at least I think its referred as that ) and found that the copper washer contact was well pitted as well as the two flat points the washer contacts, I cleaned all 3 surfaces up best I could with a dremmel wheel and enery cloth and the starter seemed to be much better. On my old 76 ironhead we use to flip the washer over to give a new contact surface.
So after giving alot of thought toward a new regulator and since the battery was replaced this year ( hopefully not on the parts shelf for past couple years ) I'm thinking this starter or starter kit for sure , possibly going to the 38 amp charging system as my bike does have alot of lightes stereo etc , the reason I'm thinking 38 amp compared to my now present 32 amp (with its new stator ) is a new regulator would cost me probably a 100 bux and the charging system may or may not be strong enough for the old girls demands where as for how much more I can switch to 38 amp and I think definately charging output would be more than adequate.
What do you guys think? As well any suggestions on where to buy a 38 amp system , is one better than another?
Last edited by RidemyEVO; Nov 7, 2010 at 04:37 PM.
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