I recently helped Buttman out with a pinging problem he had with his 04 RoadGlide. A local dealership had recommended and installed some mods on his bike that included S/E Performance Heads, hi-compression forged pistons, and S&S 510G cams. It ran well, but had a serious detination (pinging) problem - to the extent that he could not even use 6th gear.

After a minimal amount of research, we discovered that the build was running at approx 10.5:1 CR. The S&S spec for the 510 cam states 9.7:1 as the maximum compression ratio. After talking to a few reputable builders, I learned that the 510s are very prone to pinging when you excede 9.7:1.

Simple fix.... right? Replace the HC pistons with flat-tops and use some thick head gaskets. I told him I could have it running in one day - "no problem"...

Well, we found a few surprises that slowed the process. The least of which was NOT the fact that when the dealership installed his E-Series pipe, it was done in a way that caused the rear master cylinder plunger to rub a crease 90+% through the front tube! So.... new pipe too! D&D FATCAT!!!!!!!!!!!

While we were at it, we decided to upgrade to some TP Engineering roller rockers.

I had everything back together and we were just waiting on the pipe. When it arrived, we bolted it on and went to fire the bike up.... and.... (You may have read his HELP..... post) we had no spark and no pulse to the fuel injectors. NO STARTY!!!!

We did a ton of troubleshooting and Kevin had significant correspondence w/SHovelhead Bob.... THANKS BOB!!!

We could NOT get the bike to fire.

Here's where the "Lesson Learned" comes in....

As you may, or may NOT know (I did NOT know) if there is a serious compression problem the ECM will NOT fire the plugs or injectors. We had 0 psi on the front cylinder and 40 psi on the rear.

After beating my head bloody banging it against a wall, Kevin (Buttman) called with an idea.... What if the valve spring retainers were binding on the rockerboxes and the valves not closing properly??? I recalled installing the same roller rockers on my old RG, and that the rockbox covers had to be ground to provide adequate clearence! We removed the rockerbox covers and..... BINGO! 175psi on both F & R cylinders!!!

After a ton of grinding, cleaning, testing, grinding, cleaning, etc..... We bolted it back up and ..... after "re-marrying" the ECM and security module.... IT FIRED RIGHT UP!!!!

Man does that FatCat sound SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am gonna have to get another one! I forgot how much I missed that pipe!

Bottom line - lack of compression can cause the ECM to "act" like there is an electrical problem AND if you install roller rockers on a Twin Cam, BE SURE to clearence the covers!

Boy does that make me feel DUMB!

Sorry Buttman!!!!

 

This was the first time I ever got to re-build an engine. I have done small maintenance items, changing fluids, adding an oil cooler, changing the bars out for some chubbies, ya know just little things. And I must say that while it had its bad moments, I really enjoyed this. I was really just a gopher and an observer more than anything else, but I was absorbing all I could and turning wrenches when I could. It made me understand so much more about how it all works together, and I am truely gratefull for the knowledge gained.

When we had problems, I was able to brainstorm with Phil to try to come up with solutions. This was by far the most rewarding work I have ever done on the bike. So, that being said, no apologies are necessary.

Besides, now I have a new exhaust I get to listen to.......WooHoo

So, now let's tear into your bike and have somemore fun!!!!!!

New pics will be forth coming!!

[IMG]local://upfiles/8977/A637E9384A4A44F6A551C6F3D3D1AA80.jpg[/IMG]

 

If you PAID good money to the stealership to do the job
why didn't you make them fix it ? Curious minds whould like to know.

 

I think I recall reading that this kind of mod requires different valve covers in the sales lit. (not even the parts manual!) I can't believe that a dealer made this mess, and if they did, they need to be reported.

C#

 

WOW never heard of anyone having problems with the 510 lift cams I guess there is a first time for everything.

 

It wasn't actually the cams (other than originally having too much compression) that caused the problem. It was the roller rockers. The roller tips are "taller" than the stock rockers and needed additional clearence so they did not hit the rocker cover and hold the valves slightly open.

The attached pic shows where we ground off a rib and shortened another. Hope the pic is moderately clear.

[IMG]local://upfiles/8665/672C22B53CE546B3B08AA671A89CF0C0.jpg[/IMG]

 

The original build was done over a year ago. I have read alot about high compression builds and their noise issues(valve train and piston slap). Some, not all, but quite a few, talk about their pinging issues also. This led me to believe that the only option was to retard the spark enough to quell the pinging. This also tends to give you a flat spot in the response of the motor. I did not want that. The shop basically said that is the way it is. They were not willing to change out or replace the mods I had asked them to do just because I didn't like the way the motor sounded. I could pay to have them re-done though. Wasn't going to go there. So I searched for other alternatives not knowing that the problem with the pinging was the compression of the motor versus the compression needs of the cam. I tried cooler plugs, helped some, tried adding fuel through the PCIII, helped some, tried using an oil cooler, helped some. But nothing got rid of it in my cruise range of 2800-3200 RPM. So, all of the indy mechanics (BigBoyz and others) told me the same thing, to much compression for the 510 cam, and I decided to drop my compression down to 9.7 or so. I'm just guessing on the compression based on info provided by those same indies, but I know I'm alot closer to the cam's designed compression ratio. It seems I no longer have a pinging problem. I rode the bike yesterday, got her up to operating temp, and no ping in any gear including 6th. Even trying to force it by rolling on the throttle at 2000 RPM produced no pinging.

So, another lesson learned is to always match, as close as possible, compression of the motor to designed compression of the cam, no matter what.



[IMG]local://upfiles/8977/ADFF4FF204C640F0B2589E69C918A5AA.jpg[/IMG]

 

Thanks for sharing your "learning lesson" with the rest of us.
That's what is so cool about this forum.

 

cause they phucked it up the first time...i like others have had some less than fulfilling experiences at dealerships and many very satisfying hours doin it ourselves....my dealer dyno tuned mine with my SERT and all i have right now is pipes & air but it gets 30mpg and sounds dull and runs lazy...it has some decel pops and if i wick it, sometimes it wont take the fuel cause its fat...thier answer is they all do that...so i'm researchin for a great performance pkg & shop to tune it with...while i certainly can do anything on the bike, if i find someone who i gel with i may have them do the work...but you can rest assured it wont be my dealer and i dont worry about warranty

 

Sabin Performance in Dallas is a recommended tuner on the PCIII website and he did an awesome job on my bike. He also did Philm's bike this weekend. I don't know if he does SERT though. And yeah, I didn't like the first result, so I figured the second one would be about the same.

[IMG]local://upfiles/8977/27287C31672246C5AA65C1645DF13D43.jpg[/IMG]