Is this the right time?
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 891
Likes: 1
From:
Check the thread on the new Harley Iron model. I asked the question "Is 883 Too Big?" Some experts say 800cc is the future of this market and 600cc is the future of the sport market.
Harley is a superb marketing company and has made lots of money by following their customer base. But, on rare occasions you have to kick your customers out of the road and speed ahead. I can't see over the next hill, but there are a lot of bumps ahead and that hill is steep. The MOCO managers will earn their money on this ride.
Harley is a superb marketing company and has made lots of money by following their customer base. But, on rare occasions you have to kick your customers out of the road and speed ahead. I can't see over the next hill, but there are a lot of bumps ahead and that hill is steep. The MOCO managers will earn their money on this ride.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 923
Likes: 3
From: Southern Oregon
The questions "what kind of bike did you start out on" is not a very reliable source of info. Many rider start out on some type of dirt bike their dad bought them when they were 10 years old.
The question should have been "what kind of street bike did you first purchase yourself" or something more on that order.
My first street bike that I bought myself was a Honda CB750F which was an expensive and "big" bike for a 17 year old kid to buy. I could have afforded to buy a Harley but back then I didn't want one. Yes, back then 17 year olds actually had jobs and didn't stay home playing video games and letting mom and dad support them.
The question should have been "what kind of street bike did you first purchase yourself" or something more on that order.
My first street bike that I bought myself was a Honda CB750F which was an expensive and "big" bike for a 17 year old kid to buy. I could have afforded to buy a Harley but back then I didn't want one. Yes, back then 17 year olds actually had jobs and didn't stay home playing video games and letting mom and dad support them.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
From: Middle River, MD
I'm trying to imagine the sound of a 90 degree V with a pair of 100cc jugs, but I doubt it would sound anything like a Harley. Even with drag pipes, it would be a bit of a tenor, dont ya think?
HD doesn't make cheap stuff. If I wanted plastic fenders, I'd have bough another Honda. Unless you inherited a tru$t fund or have Oprah as an aunt, you don't want to start with a new bike, no matter who makes it. Guaranteed, you will scuff it up badly in the first 12 months. There are those that have dropped their bike, and those who will. Who would buy their 16 year-old a new Lexus to learn to drive? You get them a beat up Cavalier with no expectations of it staying in the family, or pass down your own worn-out ride while daddy upgrades (but this doesn't apply to bikes, because I think I'd cry if I saw my son bring my Sporty back bent & beaten.)
Irrespective of the displacement, a 600 pound bike is not a good place to aquire basic skills. It can and has been done, but the consequences of failure are more severe.
Trip a 125cc bike in low speed maneuvering, and you can probably catch it when instinct puts your foot down. Do it with an XL883 and you may be buying grips, mirrors and a rear turn signal.
HD doesn't make cheap stuff. If I wanted plastic fenders, I'd have bough another Honda. Unless you inherited a tru$t fund or have Oprah as an aunt, you don't want to start with a new bike, no matter who makes it. Guaranteed, you will scuff it up badly in the first 12 months. There are those that have dropped their bike, and those who will. Who would buy their 16 year-old a new Lexus to learn to drive? You get them a beat up Cavalier with no expectations of it staying in the family, or pass down your own worn-out ride while daddy upgrades (but this doesn't apply to bikes, because I think I'd cry if I saw my son bring my Sporty back bent & beaten.)
Irrespective of the displacement, a 600 pound bike is not a good place to aquire basic skills. It can and has been done, but the consequences of failure are more severe.
Trip a 125cc bike in low speed maneuvering, and you can probably catch it when instinct puts your foot down. Do it with an XL883 and you may be buying grips, mirrors and a rear turn signal.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 1
From:
You have to understand, designing a motorcycle takes time. This isn't like rearranging the floor for the weekend sale. It takes years for product development in the car and motorcycle industry. It also takes millions of dollars. So by the time it appears in showrooms, things may have changed.
Look at the new Honda Fury. Mny are wondering why they come out now with a factory custom looking bike with the custom scene changing and the downturn in the economy.
It's because this was being designed two or more years ago. It takes that long for planning, production, testing, certification, parts procurement, and finally, manufacture and distribution.
That's why Harley's "new" Sportster is just some cosmetic changes.
Look at the new Honda Fury. Mny are wondering why they come out now with a factory custom looking bike with the custom scene changing and the downturn in the economy.
It's because this was being designed two or more years ago. It takes that long for planning, production, testing, certification, parts procurement, and finally, manufacture and distribution.
That's why Harley's "new" Sportster is just some cosmetic changes.
Last edited by AZ Rider; Jan 27, 2009 at 04:03 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,691
Likes: 3
They need to make better bikes. There is nothing that will prompt Harley riders into running out to buy a new bike than feeling somehow their current bike is inferior. Personally, the easiest way to give them that feeling is to revamp the EFI system. Make it virtually self tuning. Particularly get rid of the pinging. Knock supression is good, knock prevention is better. Maybe add torque, wide-band o2 and maf sensors. Heck, stick an SD card slot in the fuse box to record operating data off the ecm.
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,599
Likes: 421
From: Lansing mi
Believe me a 883 Sportster is to heavy for a new kid to start out on. When my son was 16 he gave my old 2000 Sportster a try, Way to much for him, but he loved his friends light weight Yamaha. Now he is in collage and still has a thing for Yamaha. He thinks all Harleys are to big and heavy. I now have a 06 1200-C and when my buds stop in on a BT he just shakes his head and walks away. I'm not sure it would be good for the MC to spend $ on a new cruiser styled small bike in this economy. But as for me, I would give about anything if I could go back 4 years to that day, and had a 300 lbs 400 cc Harley for my son to start out on, I think things would be different now.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
From: Middle River, MD
They need to make better bikes. There is nothing that will prompt Harley riders into running out to buy a new bike than feeling somehow their current bike is inferior. Personally, the easiest way to give them that feeling is to revamp the EFI system. Make it virtually self tuning. Particularly get rid of the pinging. Knock supression is good, knock prevention is better. Maybe add torque, wide-band o2 and maf sensors. Heck, stick an SD card slot in the fuse box to record operating data off the ecm.
I had higher expectations for the EFI based on experience with fuel injection on every other kind of vehicle. I specifically wanted EFI & and O2 sensor because I didn't want the hassle of re-jetting for every mod.
Engineers aren't stupid, and even narrow bad sensors tell you "way too lean", they just can't tell you by how much. Every engineering school teaches you how to make a control loop that can bring the feedback sensor back into it's working range (the "I" term in a "PID" control loop). There is no doubt in my mind that the EFI was designed as a simple proportional control loop specifically so you would have to pay for shop time and an SE tuner to adjust it.
The name and reputation of a company drives the market. Two snowmobile manufacturers now sell motorcycles under an alias, because they wanted to be perceived as a quality vehicle, not a snow toy. "Victory" is really Polaris, and the CanAm Spyder is from Bombardier. IMO, Harley is still coasting on a legacy and is absolutely diminishing their reputation. They are not ony losing the new rider market, they are also losing their existing loyalty base. I know several wrench capable bikers that love Harleys and refuse to buy a new one.