Harley "new" image
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Nuevo México, Los Estados Unidos de América
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Tourer
Joined: Mar 2007
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Hermonk is right. But I Beleive Harley is pricing themselves out of the market. The iron is a great attempt but the money is still to high. When i was a kid all we ever wanted was a harley. A sportster to us was the ideal bike in 1983..then came the the affordable well performing bikes that rule the market still 25 years later. My kid didnt want a harley at all. He decided on a ninja 250 to learn on. He is now sold on the price and reliability of the Kawasaki just as his friends are sold on the GSXR's they ride. I think the marketing may work, but I also think it is too little, to late. Almost no one has disposable income anymore and we are certainly going to think twice about the price of a new bike. To me the VROD was a failure and although the muscle looks great, but it is not the busa killer or ninja buster that harley thought it would be. real sport riders would not be seen near one. A very small market I believe.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Nuevo México, Los Estados Unidos de América
Of course, HD didn't re-orient it'self to staying on top of that market, and now eight years later, the V-Rod is essentially the same bike (+a fat tire and 120cc), where as a 2009 Ninja 600 could smoke a 600 from 2002. High performance requires investment, and constant refinement. I think they really could have their market, if they put the money into it. For any of you who think the VRSC line failed, go to 1130cc.com and check out how large and dedicated that community is.
HD needs to stop re-packaging the same basic model, and telling us it's something new. Instead, they should be constantly updating the core of the bikes (powerplant, frame, brakes), and leaving the paint and accessories as something that can be customized later, instead of spending all their R&D money on new paint schemes, and bolt-on doodads. The sportster Evo is essentially the same engine it's been since 1986, the Twin Cam is essentially the same engine it's been since 1998, the Revolution is basically the same it's been since 2001. What other manufacturer of anything is that stagnant?
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 17,625
Likes: 1,665
From: Blairsville GA
I think the V-Rod was a failure with the traditional HD crowd because it was non-traditional. The fact is that when it came out in 2002, it was ninja buster/busa killer, laying down 1/4 mile times (11.3 seconds stock for 02) that we almost as fast as the quickest sportsbikes then.
Of course, HD didn't re-orient it'self to staying on top of that market, and now eight years later, the V-Rod is essentially the same bike (+a fat tire and 120cc), where as a 2009 Ninja 600 could smoke a 600 from 2002. High performance requires investment, and constant refinement. I think they really could have their market, if they put the money into it. For any of you who think the VRSC line failed, go to 1130cc.com and check out how large and dedicated that community is.
HD needs to stop re-packaging the same basic model, and telling us it's something new. Instead, they should be constantly updating the core of the bikes (powerplant, frame, brakes), and leaving the paint and accessories as something that can be customized later, instead of spending all their R&D money on new paint schemes, and bolt-on doodads. The sportster Evo is essentially the same engine it's been since 1986, the Twin Cam is essentially the same engine it's been since 1998, the Revolution is basically the same it's been since 2001. What other manufacturer of anything is that stagnant?
Of course, HD didn't re-orient it'self to staying on top of that market, and now eight years later, the V-Rod is essentially the same bike (+a fat tire and 120cc), where as a 2009 Ninja 600 could smoke a 600 from 2002. High performance requires investment, and constant refinement. I think they really could have their market, if they put the money into it. For any of you who think the VRSC line failed, go to 1130cc.com and check out how large and dedicated that community is.
HD needs to stop re-packaging the same basic model, and telling us it's something new. Instead, they should be constantly updating the core of the bikes (powerplant, frame, brakes), and leaving the paint and accessories as something that can be customized later, instead of spending all their R&D money on new paint schemes, and bolt-on doodads. The sportster Evo is essentially the same engine it's been since 1986, the Twin Cam is essentially the same engine it's been since 1998, the Revolution is basically the same it's been since 2001. What other manufacturer of anything is that stagnant?
It is a mistake to compare the pace of technological advance in the highly competitive 600cc sportbike market and the cruiser or power cruiser market. Harley has been continuously evolving their product to meet the demands of their customers. Their customer is probably not the kid that is hot to buy the newest bamboo bullet because it is .001 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile than last months latest greatest.
It's too bad that many "hard core" Harley guys don't consider Buells to be Harley Davidsons. They are far and away the most technologically advanced and forward thinking bikes made by the Motor Company. Buell's have been running top of the line components for 15 years. The 1200R, while a cool piece is essentially a detuned Buell engine in a chassis that weights 150 pounds more. Nothing else in Harley's portfolio can touch a Buell for power to weight, acceleration, top speed and handling.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
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From: Nuevo México, Los Estados Unidos de América
It was competitive with the 600cc bikes, just like the 1125 is now competitive with the 600cc inline 4s.
The 1125 Rotex based Buells are awesome, and they will all out handle any Harley, but for straigh-line off the light acceleration, I think the Revo still takes it from the air-cooled Buells.
The 1125 Rotex based Buells are awesome, and they will all out handle any Harley, but for straigh-line off the light acceleration, I think the Revo still takes it from the air-cooled Buells.
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,230
Likes: 1
From: Oak Park, IL
As a kid I remember going to the Pontiac dealer with my Dad and sitting there with the catalog and a long sheet filled with check boxes. You started with a basic frame and body and then "built" your car to order. I know that it is not a "sound business practice" now. But you almost wonder if HD cuts back on production far enough that could be the future, again! ( Ok I know I'm dreaming here, just go with it for a moment or two....)
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 923
Likes: 3
From: Southern Oregon
Most are great answers, but of couse there are always a few idiotic ones in every bunch.
A few points I want to say, one being brakes. The brakes on the Harleys are CRAP. Ever ride a V-Rod? They beat the traditional Harley bikes brakes by far. There is absolutly no comparison in stopping power, the V-Rod is excellent, traditional Harley bikes are not. I have both so I have compared!
Air cooled Harley engines.... who can say they don't need a some work. When you have to program the computer to shut off one of the cylinders so the engine doesn't overheat should be the first clue.
Yes I love my Harley Fat Bob but it's far from being perfect, if there is such a thing. And the part I don't get is, these things CAN be fixed or addressed but Harley doesn't because they don't have to. People will just buy their bikes because everyone else has one. They havent' need to make them better in the past, but maybe that's about to change and I look foward to it and welcome it.
Just 10 short years ago you couldn't get a Harley that didn't leak oil or would shake so bad anything that wasn't glued on would fall off. They have made these improvements and we have all accepted and enjoyed them. I'm sure the future will bring even better improvements.
A few points I want to say, one being brakes. The brakes on the Harleys are CRAP. Ever ride a V-Rod? They beat the traditional Harley bikes brakes by far. There is absolutly no comparison in stopping power, the V-Rod is excellent, traditional Harley bikes are not. I have both so I have compared!
Air cooled Harley engines.... who can say they don't need a some work. When you have to program the computer to shut off one of the cylinders so the engine doesn't overheat should be the first clue.
Yes I love my Harley Fat Bob but it's far from being perfect, if there is such a thing. And the part I don't get is, these things CAN be fixed or addressed but Harley doesn't because they don't have to. People will just buy their bikes because everyone else has one. They havent' need to make them better in the past, but maybe that's about to change and I look foward to it and welcome it.
Just 10 short years ago you couldn't get a Harley that didn't leak oil or would shake so bad anything that wasn't glued on would fall off. They have made these improvements and we have all accepted and enjoyed them. I'm sure the future will bring even better improvements.
Road Captain
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver Island
Cool looking dude there Gump. interesting color on that? Whatcha got under the hood?We used to build all kinds of weird stuff. Rather pull out of the box and ride in now though. Though I say that and I have an MG all apart ready for paint and turning the barn into a shop. Not sure I like some of the direction the Moco is going in but they have to get the market younger and spread before us old farts slid into the ole hole.
Not sure how a "lesbian hermaphrodite" would ride a bike?
Not sure how a "lesbian hermaphrodite" would ride a bike?
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Joe Kucinski
Road Master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 920
Likes: 1
From: Northern NJ
I agree and disagree.....
the biggest problems with other manufactures is that very same idea. every year they come out with a bike that -3 seconds faster than last years more hoarse power, etc......
that mentality is great if you own allot of shares in that particular manufactures stock but sucks for the consumer, the people buying your bike.
I hate that I buy a bike and next year it is worth half the value and on top of that I now want to buy this years bike because it is now the biggest and baddest for the next 6 months....
Harley owners buy a Harley for more than just that. they buy heritage history etc...
with that said, Harley might have to adopt that mentality if they want to survive in this new market, maybe..... sucks for us.
harley tries really hard to update the bike and still keep it the same. harley owners are real picky when it came to change. I remember when they changed the harley odometer from analog to digital.....riots in the streets...
the biggest problems with other manufactures is that very same idea. every year they come out with a bike that -3 seconds faster than last years more hoarse power, etc......
that mentality is great if you own allot of shares in that particular manufactures stock but sucks for the consumer, the people buying your bike.
I hate that I buy a bike and next year it is worth half the value and on top of that I now want to buy this years bike because it is now the biggest and baddest for the next 6 months....
Harley owners buy a Harley for more than just that. they buy heritage history etc...
with that said, Harley might have to adopt that mentality if they want to survive in this new market, maybe..... sucks for us.
harley tries really hard to update the bike and still keep it the same. harley owners are real picky when it came to change. I remember when they changed the harley odometer from analog to digital.....riots in the streets...
Not sure what your frame of reference is, but the V-rod was never a "Ninja buster or a 'Busa killer." At the turn of the century top line sportsbikes were turning low 10s to high 9's in the 1/4 mile. That is a lot different than 11.3. Mid 11's was state of the art in the early 1980s. Hayabusa is electronically limited to a speed (it could go a lot faster) that is about 50 MPH faster than a V-rod (if you can figure out how to hang on to a naked bike at 130MPH).
It is a mistake to compare the pace of technological advance in the highly competitive 600cc sportbike market and the cruiser or power cruiser market. Harley has been continuously evolving their product to meet the demands of their customers. Their customer is probably not the kid that is hot to buy the newest bamboo bullet because it is .001 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile than last months latest greatest.
It's too bad that many "hard core" Harley guys don't consider Buells to be Harley Davidsons. They are far and away the most technologically advanced and forward thinking bikes made by the Motor Company. Buell's have been running top of the line components for 15 years. The 1200R, while a cool piece is essentially a detuned Buell engine in a chassis that weights 150 pounds more. Nothing else in Harley's portfolio can touch a Buell for power to weight, acceleration, top speed and handling.
It is a mistake to compare the pace of technological advance in the highly competitive 600cc sportbike market and the cruiser or power cruiser market. Harley has been continuously evolving their product to meet the demands of their customers. Their customer is probably not the kid that is hot to buy the newest bamboo bullet because it is .001 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile than last months latest greatest.
It's too bad that many "hard core" Harley guys don't consider Buells to be Harley Davidsons. They are far and away the most technologically advanced and forward thinking bikes made by the Motor Company. Buell's have been running top of the line components for 15 years. The 1200R, while a cool piece is essentially a detuned Buell engine in a chassis that weights 150 pounds more. Nothing else in Harley's portfolio can touch a Buell for power to weight, acceleration, top speed and handling.