Originally Posted by The Reverend D

Faber,

My wife has her Masters in Sociology. Her degree and my observations show me every day that this is not a Meritocracy. As I said, for some, it is. But there are too many factors proving that wealth begets wealth and poverty begets poverty for me to believe anything else.

I quit my full time job this year to return to school. I am learning real fast that for kids to go to college these days, they have to agree to leave college with debt in the form of student loans, just to better themselves and their chances for a better life.

I want to be led by the best and brightest also, and that is the core of my argument. Not only will we never know who the best and brightest are because our educational system is incredibly faulty and prohibitively expensive, (we're still paying off my wife's student loans and she graduated 12 years ago) but what is passing for the "best and brightest" is making the same tired assumptions that, to do business, one must sacrifice the little guy to the maw of the market forces that "none of us can control."

I'm so tired of the "business first" model. There are so many organisations out there that do incredibly well by working a concern for their employees into the business model!

Besides, how do we expect to stimulate our economy (you know, the economy that was ruined by the very same execs that are now getting the bonuses that we're discussing right now?) if we keep firing our labour force? What's that guy going to do that used to bolt transmissions into Sportsters now? Work at McDonald's? Dig ditches? Move to Korea when HD starts outsourcing labour because it's cheaper to build transmissions overseas?

How is an economy stimulated when the poor (the majority of the country) is too broke to buy anything?

BUSINESS FIRST isn't working, folks.

And they've sold us this bill of goods because...gasp! it's profitable for them. Go figure.

"You have the greatest country in the world that became that because its people had the opportunity to excel if they wanted to. By exceling, they created a lot of wealth for themselves and created a lot wealth for even those at the lowest income level. People did this, not the government. When you start using the government to confiscate property from one person who has earned it to give to another who has not, you are weakening the mechanizm that made the country great and would allow it to continue on that path. So, yes, socialism seems a bit unAmerican to me."

Well, I have a lot of problems with the above statement. Starting with "The greatest country on Earth..." I mean, really? Why even bother taking it there? We're an amazing country. We do a lot of wonderful things in the world and we save a lot of lives and we enjoy a lot of surface freedom, yes. BUT, those wacky Spanish folks aren't exactly labouring under the yoke of slavery, you know? Greeks and Russians and Englishmen, Italians and Moroccans... they're all enjoying freedom too.

And as far as I can see, the wealthy in this country aren't exactly creating a wealthy underclass just because they're earning a lot of money. If you're trying to tell me that tired old chestnut of trickle down economics is a great idea... well, that's what led us here, so... I'm pretty sure that hard-working poor folks who are working 50 and 60 hour weeks and still can't meet the costs of feeding the family and keeping the house warm might be a little tired of being told that they can eat the scraps from a rich man's plate.

And I'm also worn out with people jumping to the conclusion that, just because I'm trying to advocate a different kind of thinking that I am saying the government should be taking from those that have earned it to give it to those who have not. I am not advocating that. What I AM advocating is trying to find a way to engineer a system so that those who work honestly and well, can reap the rewards of their labour.

I see people working their asses off every day who can barely afford to keep the lights on, much less put a kid through college. And when I see some newly successful person with a little money crapping on folks that are where they were a single generation agi, it makes my blood boil.

Meritocracy? Please. How is a school in a poor neighbourhood that doesn't get the same funding as a school in a wealthier neighbourhood going to compete? It's NOT.

And people that claim that America is a meritocracy just ain't looking.

I Love My Country. My country has done well by me and my family. My family has fought for this country and suffered for it. (in the interest of full disclosure, I was too stupid to serve when I was younger and that's why, at the age of 44, I am trying to become a schoolteacher, so I can serve another way).

BUT, I love my country the way an adult loves someone. Aware of their faults and blessings. I love this country, faults and all and strive every day to live a life that might set an example for younger people. Including questioning our system, trying to be aware of where it's broken and celebrating where it isn't broken.

and Faber, I'm not the only one making uncited assertions...

"Obscenity? Try telling that to a white boy digging ditches til they put him in his grave. Ain't got to be a black boy to be living like a slave."

WOW... I'm tempted to apologise for the sheer length of this sucker! Anyway, I do apologise for the angry tone.

I actually think that the back and forth of discussions like this are where What America Means are worked out and why we're the amazingly wonderful country that we are.

So, thanks for the responses and thanks for being polite and remember... be nice to those around you!

Originally Posted by faber

And I have a PhD.

I can cite bibliography with the best of them. I am a quant guy but do qual work, too (prefer mixed-method, actually). I'm an ace at instrument development, a recognized expert in designing reliability tests, and eat validity claims for breakfast. But I didn't get into this thread to start an academic pissing war. (How was that? I really did try to turn it up a notch It's OK, my grad students laugh at me when I get like that, too)

So far many data on the Millennials show that the pattern you illustrate above is breaking down at a faster rate than for any previous generation.



Congratulations on your decision! There is no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the opportunity of higher ed., you have to be willing to sacrifice a little for it. I don't see a problem with that. (And if they don't want loans, there are other solutions.)



I assume you're arguing against someone else here: this is not what I was getting into.




Read Jonathan Kozol. Our schools are the shittiest in the free world. No argument there. And we, as a nation, outspend the highest performing school systems in the world by a factor of 13.



Still disagree. I'd say you're not looking. There is always a way up and out. Always. Sometimes it's hard work. Sometimes it's *real* hard work. But there is always a way.




I served. I am an immigrant who came here and refused any family help to make my way. I served honorably in the Army infantry, got my GI Bill, went to college, treated it like a job, got into grad school with full funding, and so forth. And since getting out I have spent my whole life in public service.

Yeah, I kind of like America, too. I served it, still do, and am grateful for every opportunity I've had here. Never asked for anything, never expected anything.

And congratulations on your decision to become a teacher. I work with pre-service teachers every day. It is a recession-proof job. 3.2 million teachers in America working in 100,000 school across 14,420 school districts. And 15-20% of teachers leave the job every year (80% of those entering the profession will not last 3 years as a teacher). Lots of variety out there in work environments and opportunity, if you are willing to move. I'm too lazy to cite right now.....ask any of your C&I profs if any of what I said is true. They'll say 'Yes', of course.

(If you don't want to deal with the loans, if you have any, come out here and teach in a Title I school on the res. Federal loan forgiveness after 3 years, if you can survive. Most can't. See? There is always a way.....)



Did I say that? Well, schitt....I must have been hitting the malt hard.

(j/k.....I know I didn't say that.)

So, again, what is the problem with a board hiring a guy with a proven track record of sound business acumen and proven work history, a guy who has risen to the top on his own merits? In this country of ~390 million people, very few have the skills, intelligence, leadership, and history that merit a C-suite executive position. Those that fit the bill do cost a bit--they're rare birds. Boards always looking to save money are free to hire a soapbox-MBA from the employee breakroom for a lot less, but they don't. Ever wonder why?

So far, no one can accuse Wandell of inaction. Let's wait two quarters and see if it's working.

Originally Posted by The Reverend D

Actually HarleyRider49, I'm not all that educated... Just getting my formal education now. And Faber makes excellent points and sounds as though he's coming from a much more educated viewpoint than I.