Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
Club Member
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 14,564
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From: the 50s & the 60s
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
ORIGINAL: softail2005
This most likely is all about money to support the family
and a big payday for the lawyers.
Most of the product liability lawsuits today are about finding the deep pockets for a big payday.
I do agree that using a motorcycle for high speed pursuits is not smart.
One oil spot or gravel spot on the road and you are down on your butt.
Sounds like more of a training issue with the police dept involved to me.
This most likely is all about money to support the family
and a big payday for the lawyers.
Most of the product liability lawsuits today are about finding the deep pockets for a big payday.
I do agree that using a motorcycle for high speed pursuits is not smart.
One oil spot or gravel spot on the road and you are down on your butt.
Sounds like more of a training issue with the police dept involved to me.
You gotta put your line in the water, and this is part of the problem,
to easy to go fishing.
Costs us all. BS that the insurance companies are the ones paying.
"Sounds like more of a training issue with the police dept involved to me."
Absolutely. But, HD surely has deeper pockets.
"We believe that if Officer Paul had been able to control his motorcycle,
he would not have gone into the shoulder and, if he had,
he would have been able to steer around the items in the shoulder," she said.
Yeah. 85mph. on the shoulder. steer around something. Right.
mud
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,560
Likes: 2
From: Arizona
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
What isn't being discussed here is the tendency of the touring line bikes to induce a wobble under certain conditions. There are at least two products on the market, the Ride Str8 and the Tru-Track, that were designed to address this tendency.
I have experienced the wobble on two occasions on my FLHTCUI. In my case the wobble was induced by a compression bump in the middle ofa high speed corner. When it starts, it feels like the bike is hinged right in the middle of the frame and is flexing back and forth. This causes the front forks to move left and right through several oscillations. During this time, the bike does not respond to steering input, and it pretty much goes wherever it wants to. After 3-4 oscillations, it settles right back down and everything is fine. Since I was right on the apex, I had a little bit of road to give up for the recovery. If I had been off the line when it started, I may not of had room to recover. Additionally, the batwing is much more susceptible to wind turbulence than the frame mounted fairings of the RoadGlide, or BMW. When combined, the high speed compression, the wind turbulence, and the recovery time could easily lead to contact with something that could lead to a fatal off, like a bag of concrete for instance. For me, the solution is simple. I just slow down so that I don't have the problem. The majority of riders may never experience these conditions at all. The question that remains for me is are the Harley Electra Glides suitable for use as a Police bike? I asked an officer in Billings, MT if he had ever experienced it and his reply was "The death wobble? Oh yeah!" These aren't race bikes, and their limits are reached much sooner. Harley wants to sell bikes to PD's that in my opinion aren't really suitable for the job. Who is being greedy?
I have experienced the wobble on two occasions on my FLHTCUI. In my case the wobble was induced by a compression bump in the middle ofa high speed corner. When it starts, it feels like the bike is hinged right in the middle of the frame and is flexing back and forth. This causes the front forks to move left and right through several oscillations. During this time, the bike does not respond to steering input, and it pretty much goes wherever it wants to. After 3-4 oscillations, it settles right back down and everything is fine. Since I was right on the apex, I had a little bit of road to give up for the recovery. If I had been off the line when it started, I may not of had room to recover. Additionally, the batwing is much more susceptible to wind turbulence than the frame mounted fairings of the RoadGlide, or BMW. When combined, the high speed compression, the wind turbulence, and the recovery time could easily lead to contact with something that could lead to a fatal off, like a bag of concrete for instance. For me, the solution is simple. I just slow down so that I don't have the problem. The majority of riders may never experience these conditions at all. The question that remains for me is are the Harley Electra Glides suitable for use as a Police bike? I asked an officer in Billings, MT if he had ever experienced it and his reply was "The death wobble? Oh yeah!" These aren't race bikes, and their limits are reached much sooner. Harley wants to sell bikes to PD's that in my opinion aren't really suitable for the job. Who is being greedy?
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 21,949
Likes: 6
From: My house
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
ORIGINAL: Peekaboo Bob
What isn't being discussed here is the tendency of the touring line bikes to induce a wobble under certain conditions. There are at least two products on the market, the Ride Str8 and the Tru-Track, that were designed to address this tendency.
I have experienced the wobble on two occasions on my FLHTCUI. In my case the wobble was induced by a compression bump in the middle ofa high speed corner. When it starts, it feels like the bike is hinged right in the middle of the frame and is flexing back and forth. This causes the front forks to move left and right through several oscillations. During this time, the bike does not respond to steering input, and it pretty much goes wherever it wants to. After 3-4 oscillations, it settles right back down and everything is fine. Since I was right on the apex, I had a little bit of road to give up for the recovery. If I had been off the line when it started, I may not of had room to recover. Additionally, the batwing is much more susceptible to wind turbulence than the frame mounted fairings of the RoadGlide, or BMW. When combined, the high speed compression, the wind turbulence, and the recovery time could easily lead to contact with something that could lead to a fatal off, like a bag of concrete for instance. For me, the solution is simple. I just slow down so that I don't have the problem. The majority of riders may never experience these conditions at all. The question that remains for me is are the Harley Electra Glides suitable for use as a Police bike? I asked an officer in Billings, MT if he had ever experienced it and his reply was "The death wobble? Oh yeah!" These aren't race bikes, and their limits are reached much sooner. Harley wants to sell bikes to PD's that in my opinion aren't really suitable for the job. Who is being greedy?
What isn't being discussed here is the tendency of the touring line bikes to induce a wobble under certain conditions. There are at least two products on the market, the Ride Str8 and the Tru-Track, that were designed to address this tendency.
I have experienced the wobble on two occasions on my FLHTCUI. In my case the wobble was induced by a compression bump in the middle ofa high speed corner. When it starts, it feels like the bike is hinged right in the middle of the frame and is flexing back and forth. This causes the front forks to move left and right through several oscillations. During this time, the bike does not respond to steering input, and it pretty much goes wherever it wants to. After 3-4 oscillations, it settles right back down and everything is fine. Since I was right on the apex, I had a little bit of road to give up for the recovery. If I had been off the line when it started, I may not of had room to recover. Additionally, the batwing is much more susceptible to wind turbulence than the frame mounted fairings of the RoadGlide, or BMW. When combined, the high speed compression, the wind turbulence, and the recovery time could easily lead to contact with something that could lead to a fatal off, like a bag of concrete for instance. For me, the solution is simple. I just slow down so that I don't have the problem. The majority of riders may never experience these conditions at all. The question that remains for me is are the Harley Electra Glides suitable for use as a Police bike? I asked an officer in Billings, MT if he had ever experienced it and his reply was "The death wobble? Oh yeah!" These aren't race bikes, and their limits are reached much sooner. Harley wants to sell bikes to PD's that in my opinion aren't really suitable for the job. Who is being greedy?
The first thing I noticed at freeway speeds was how touchy the bike was to bar movement, and how big truck wind upset the balance of the bike IE bar movement and a slight wobble. In clean air my bike is pretty stable at high speeds or if I have a passenger which slightly increases my wheelbase due to shock compression, it's stable when coming up on and around trucks and there could be some areodynamics involved as well too.
HD could simply increase the rake and the wheelbase slightly and correct this problem but they haven't because it would mean a complete change of fixtures, jigs, engineering, components etc.,to put it simply lot's of money to change it. Overall I think the bike does quite well but it does lack at higher speed handling IMHO in certain conditions.
The bike I had before my RK was a Vulcan 1500 Kawasaki, which has 32 degrees of rake and a longer wheelbase and that bike was solid as a rock at high speeds and trucks never upset the bike at all, but it didn't handle at slow speeds as well as my Harley.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,682
Likes: 3
From: Dallas, TX
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
There are massive differences between justified lawsuits and frivolous ones. The discussed on here is quite heavily on the frivolity side. So were the lawsuits against Ford by cities when the cars caught fire after being hit at 70+ mph. Someone running YOU over would be a justified lawsuit, or say the Fords that caught fire while sitting still (and burning down the house they were next to).
What reform IS needed is that any plaintiff that loses a case pays all the fees for the trial (the losing lawyer pitches in their 1/3). That includes the defense time, the defendant's lost work time, and the court time. Then these cases that are settled would NOT be and the scummy lawyers taking them would be less likely to.
There are justified suits, but far too many unjustified ones. And the latter cannot be excused as a necessary evil.
What reform IS needed is that any plaintiff that loses a case pays all the fees for the trial (the losing lawyer pitches in their 1/3). That includes the defense time, the defendant's lost work time, and the court time. Then these cases that are settled would NOT be and the scummy lawyers taking them would be less likely to.
There are justified suits, but far too many unjustified ones. And the latter cannot be excused as a necessary evil.
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
My 02 FLHT would wobble consistantly on high speed sweepers such as the the many highway ramps around Houston. It would start as a slow oscillation once I got set into the turn and continue until the lane straightened out. The first few times were quite un-nerving. I took it to the dealer and was told 'all the FL's do that'. He also described it as 'feeling like it is hinged in the middle'. I told him that I found that a really unacceptable handling characteristic. He shrugged and said if I find a fix, let him know. I investigated all sorts of theories and found nothing physically 'wrong' with my machine. I eventually rediscovered an old road racing technique, that of 'pushing' the bike down into the corner, made the bike assume a more stable posture with no more wobble. Although I wouldn't consider this an advanced technique, I would bet that 90% of FL riders simply allow the machine to assume it's own natural posture when entering a sweeper. Unfortunately, this is not the more stable one and is therefore prone to instability.
As far as the lawsuit is concerned, North Carolina has allowance for 'contributory negligence' , so this case would be an interesting one to follow. Ray Price HD has supplied bikes to the Raleigh city and to the Highway Patrol for many years and Ray and Jean are really decent folks. I hope they survive this...no disrepect to the deceased
As far as the lawsuit is concerned, North Carolina has allowance for 'contributory negligence' , so this case would be an interesting one to follow. Ray Price HD has supplied bikes to the Raleigh city and to the Highway Patrol for many years and Ray and Jean are really decent folks. I hope they survive this...no disrepect to the deceased
Thread Starter
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Road Captain
Joined: Nov 2005
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From:
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
It's been interesting reading the posts submitted by forum members.
We live in a litigenous society where accidents don't happen-it is somebody's fault. Without trying to be offensive to some of the members, I would only say that alot of suits are settled by the defendent because of the emotional toll. A jury today is a crap shoot and the plaintiff knows this. I firmly believe that as technology, engineering, medicine, and science has become more complicated it is impossible to seat a jury of your peers. When I read a post that implies that a defendent will settle a case because he is probably guilty it makes my blood boil. Sometimes a suit is settled because the defendent is emotionally exhausted after depositions that may go on for 1-2 years before trial. This is what the plaintiff is counting on.
Understand what is going on here-Ray Price is being accused of contributing to the death of another human being. This is not some idle accusation. In the courtroom he will be villified and made to look like some callous money hungry owner of a motorcycle dealership. If you think this suit is not tearing him up inside then you need to be sued for wrongfull death and see what if feels like.
To most attorneys this is just business. To the defendent, this kind of suit is deeply personal and humiliating.
I ask just a simple question-how many riders on this forum ride at 85 mph into turns while passing a semi in the adjacant lane, and also decide to run over some road debris into the turn? My guess is you don't, and its because you know it's not safe.
I am deeply sorry for the loss of this fine officer. This kind of frivilous suit will not bring him back, and only tarnishes his name.
We live in a litigenous society where accidents don't happen-it is somebody's fault. Without trying to be offensive to some of the members, I would only say that alot of suits are settled by the defendent because of the emotional toll. A jury today is a crap shoot and the plaintiff knows this. I firmly believe that as technology, engineering, medicine, and science has become more complicated it is impossible to seat a jury of your peers. When I read a post that implies that a defendent will settle a case because he is probably guilty it makes my blood boil. Sometimes a suit is settled because the defendent is emotionally exhausted after depositions that may go on for 1-2 years before trial. This is what the plaintiff is counting on.
Understand what is going on here-Ray Price is being accused of contributing to the death of another human being. This is not some idle accusation. In the courtroom he will be villified and made to look like some callous money hungry owner of a motorcycle dealership. If you think this suit is not tearing him up inside then you need to be sued for wrongfull death and see what if feels like.
To most attorneys this is just business. To the defendent, this kind of suit is deeply personal and humiliating.
I ask just a simple question-how many riders on this forum ride at 85 mph into turns while passing a semi in the adjacant lane, and also decide to run over some road debris into the turn? My guess is you don't, and its because you know it's not safe.
I am deeply sorry for the loss of this fine officer. This kind of frivilous suit will not bring him back, and only tarnishes his name.
Cruiser
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 245
Likes: 1
From: East Central In.
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
Well said Dave!
ORIGINAL: GADave
YES, evidently you heard me right. Jurys are not smart enough!.
They're not smart enough to convict O.J.Simpson. They're not smart enough to send people who spill hot McDonalds coffee in their laps packin' - pennyless. They're not smart enough to send the life-long smoker home without an award. They can't see beyond the emotion of it all. Oh, it's all so sad.
They're not smart enough to understand that THEY are our government. That shareholders are a company. The average member of a jury pool views the government, or a big corporation as bottomless pits of money. For anyone to hit the lottery by jammin' it to a company or the government is a victory for da little man. They don't understand it enough to realize they're reaching around and picking their own pocket.
Unlike you, I don't trust the American system of justice anymore. Our system of justice assumes an intelligent and educated citizens who are as convicted to the ideals of our constitution as the framers. We ain't got that anymore man! Most people in this country don't understand freedom and liberty. They don't even WANT freedom and liberty. They want a friggin' boat! Give me enough money for a plasma TV and health coverage... you can HAVE my freedom and liberty.
Geesh man, it's all around you. Especially and particularly in the civil courts. In the ivory tower, our system of justice works great... maybe even up through the 1960s. It's broken down now. Our courts are being played like a roulette wheel with the citizens in the house seat and the corporations being forced into throwin' the little white ball wether they want to or not.
Of course the insurance company execs are gonna say tort reform won't change insurance premiums. It'l friggin' ELIMINATE them, along with the insurance companies. If corps. are sued out of existance for liability issues, then they'll cease to exist, like it should be. Not charge a few million off to the insurance company, pay 'em back over time in higher premiums, and keep on doin' what they're doing.
YES, I support the death penalty. We need to use it.
Dave
ORIGINAL: eddybo69
Jury's are not smart enough? Do you support the death penalty? I trust the American system of justice.
Jury's are not smart enough? Do you support the death penalty? I trust the American system of justice.
They're not smart enough to convict O.J.Simpson. They're not smart enough to send people who spill hot McDonalds coffee in their laps packin' - pennyless. They're not smart enough to send the life-long smoker home without an award. They can't see beyond the emotion of it all. Oh, it's all so sad.
They're not smart enough to understand that THEY are our government. That shareholders are a company. The average member of a jury pool views the government, or a big corporation as bottomless pits of money. For anyone to hit the lottery by jammin' it to a company or the government is a victory for da little man. They don't understand it enough to realize they're reaching around and picking their own pocket.
Unlike you, I don't trust the American system of justice anymore. Our system of justice assumes an intelligent and educated citizens who are as convicted to the ideals of our constitution as the framers. We ain't got that anymore man! Most people in this country don't understand freedom and liberty. They don't even WANT freedom and liberty. They want a friggin' boat! Give me enough money for a plasma TV and health coverage... you can HAVE my freedom and liberty.
Geesh man, it's all around you. Especially and particularly in the civil courts. In the ivory tower, our system of justice works great... maybe even up through the 1960s. It's broken down now. Our courts are being played like a roulette wheel with the citizens in the house seat and the corporations being forced into throwin' the little white ball wether they want to or not.
Of course the insurance company execs are gonna say tort reform won't change insurance premiums. It'l friggin' ELIMINATE them, along with the insurance companies. If corps. are sued out of existance for liability issues, then they'll cease to exist, like it should be. Not charge a few million off to the insurance company, pay 'em back over time in higher premiums, and keep on doin' what they're doing.
YES, I support the death penalty. We need to use it.
Dave
Big Kahuna HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,881
Likes: 34
From: USA
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
ORIGINAL: John TN
That one wobble might not give you a chance to repair it, it could kill you.
ORIGINAL: KBFXDLI
Bad judgement call on the part of the LEO by chasing someone while on the HD. Bottom line......he cranked the throttle, he took the risk, he got himself killed. Especially unwise if he had really taken the bike in for a high speed wobble. Sorry, but if my bike high speed wobbles......it's only going to do it once while I ride it because it's getting repaired correctly or traded for a bike that doesn't wobble. Period!!
Bad judgement call on the part of the LEO by chasing someone while on the HD. Bottom line......he cranked the throttle, he took the risk, he got himself killed. Especially unwise if he had really taken the bike in for a high speed wobble. Sorry, but if my bike high speed wobbles......it's only going to do it once while I ride it because it's getting repaired correctly or traded for a bike that doesn't wobble. Period!!
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Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,801
Likes: 13
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
If that is the case, does he not bear a part of the responsibility in his demise, for operating what he felt to be an unsafe motorcycle, in an aggressive manner?
I feel for the loss of my Brother in Blue.....but if I knew that the bike I was riding had exhibited handling problems at high speeds in the past, I would not (at high speeds), drive in the manner he was. Not for a speeder....my life is worth more than a simple speeding ticket.
I feel for the loss of my Brother in Blue.....but if I knew that the bike I was riding had exhibited handling problems at high speeds in the past, I would not (at high speeds), drive in the manner he was. Not for a speeder....my life is worth more than a simple speeding ticket.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,475
Likes: 3
From: Southeast Wisconsin
RE: Wrongful Death Suit against HD and local dealership
ORIGINAL: John TN
HD has many high speed wobble suits against it, this is probably what prompted this lawsuit.
HD has many high speed wobble suits against it, this is probably what prompted this lawsuit.