HD needs younger riders?
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 277
Likes: 1
Captain Chaos, you keep making essentially the same post on these forums over and over again, and every time I call you on it, you fail to respond but pop up in another thread to say the same things again without addressing any of my challenges. Is this like a religious faith thing for you, where you have to just ignore everyone who disagrees and keep reciting your liturgy over and over, less to convince others, but more to keep bolstering your own faith?
As we've discussed a million times before, the redlight-to-redlight-racer scene simply isn't comprised of people with discretionary spending power. Companies who cater to that niche do so only because they carry a full range of motorcycles that also include the practical commuter/cruiser/tourer/standard range that can carry them financially.
Harley listened to the armchair CEOs on the internet a little too long. To keep repeating the same mistakes over and over that they made with Buell and MV Agusta would be very foolish of them. They know what people are willing to buy, and fortunately, they're getting back on track with focusing on those models. Here's a hint: they have a pretty high-performance machine called the VRSC already. Did they heavily base their 2010 and 2011 offerings on that platform? Yes or no? What does that tell you about its importance to the company's return to profitability?
I agree with you 100% but Harley's understanding of "performance" is limited to stock prices and market share.
The reason I don't own a Harley (in the traditional sense anyway) is value. price/performance is a HUGE factor for me and Harley's are just about the worst in the market in this regard. Even if I was in the market for a cruiser Harely would be at the bottom of the list because there are several MUCH better performing options for less money **cough*Victory*cough** Harley's extremely narrow focus has alienated buyers like you or I. I wouldn't mind having another Harley for a 2nd or 3rd bike but certainly not for my primary bike and honestly, I may never be able to justify the price of a Harley as a 2nd or 3rd bike either.
As far as Buell, I think most people just didn't understand what they were. It's just silly to try to compare a naked air cooled pushrod V-twin bike to a fully faired Japanese race ready sportbike. That's like pitting a Ducati Monster up against an R1; it ain't going to be pretty for the Monster. Try comparing Buells to other sporty standards like the FZ1, the Z1000, the Ducati Monster or the Triumph Speed triple and they fair pretty well. I own a Buell and if you can get over the fact that it's not a racebike you'll find that it's an extremely good streetbike. Comfortable, fun, adequately powerful, simple/low maintainance and very capable. It's a shame that HD held Erik back from creating a full on superbike (they specifically forbid him from making a fully faired bike) because he was certainly more than capable. Google Buell 1190RS sometime and see what he's getting ready to produce out of a company the size of a storage shed behind the HD plant.
Buell would have been an ideal addition to HD just for the sake of broadening their market appeal. Even though the profits would never been the same as the cruiser line (the sportbike market is VERY competitive) it would (and did) bring people into the HD dealers that would have never been in there otherwise. A large portion of sportbike riders are VERY anti-Harley and I think Buell could have helped "bridge the gap" and maybe soften the negative image sportbike guys have of HD.
The reason I don't own a Harley (in the traditional sense anyway) is value. price/performance is a HUGE factor for me and Harley's are just about the worst in the market in this regard. Even if I was in the market for a cruiser Harely would be at the bottom of the list because there are several MUCH better performing options for less money **cough*Victory*cough** Harley's extremely narrow focus has alienated buyers like you or I. I wouldn't mind having another Harley for a 2nd or 3rd bike but certainly not for my primary bike and honestly, I may never be able to justify the price of a Harley as a 2nd or 3rd bike either.
As far as Buell, I think most people just didn't understand what they were. It's just silly to try to compare a naked air cooled pushrod V-twin bike to a fully faired Japanese race ready sportbike. That's like pitting a Ducati Monster up against an R1; it ain't going to be pretty for the Monster. Try comparing Buells to other sporty standards like the FZ1, the Z1000, the Ducati Monster or the Triumph Speed triple and they fair pretty well. I own a Buell and if you can get over the fact that it's not a racebike you'll find that it's an extremely good streetbike. Comfortable, fun, adequately powerful, simple/low maintainance and very capable. It's a shame that HD held Erik back from creating a full on superbike (they specifically forbid him from making a fully faired bike) because he was certainly more than capable. Google Buell 1190RS sometime and see what he's getting ready to produce out of a company the size of a storage shed behind the HD plant.
Buell would have been an ideal addition to HD just for the sake of broadening their market appeal. Even though the profits would never been the same as the cruiser line (the sportbike market is VERY competitive) it would (and did) bring people into the HD dealers that would have never been in there otherwise. A large portion of sportbike riders are VERY anti-Harley and I think Buell could have helped "bridge the gap" and maybe soften the negative image sportbike guys have of HD.
Harley listened to the armchair CEOs on the internet a little too long. To keep repeating the same mistakes over and over that they made with Buell and MV Agusta would be very foolish of them. They know what people are willing to buy, and fortunately, they're getting back on track with focusing on those models. Here's a hint: they have a pretty high-performance machine called the VRSC already. Did they heavily base their 2010 and 2011 offerings on that platform? Yes or no? What does that tell you about its importance to the company's return to profitability?
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 453
Likes: 10
From: Wherever, MI
I'm a young guy and have ridden HD's for a long time. I think HD is doing a good job of making a transition now to the younger crowd. The nightster and 48, the blackline....the Dark customs etc. are all geared towards us.
The biggest change is shedding the HD Pirate image. HD is finally realizing that an image shift was necessary to move bikes again and most of us younger guys dont wanna look like our dad's out riding. A lot of my buddies ride metrics and relentlessly make fun of the HD guys, the ones that strap on bandana's and chaps on the weekend and are suddenly badasses, it's just not our generation.
The biggest change is shedding the HD Pirate image. HD is finally realizing that an image shift was necessary to move bikes again and most of us younger guys dont wanna look like our dad's out riding. A lot of my buddies ride metrics and relentlessly make fun of the HD guys, the ones that strap on bandana's and chaps on the weekend and are suddenly badasses, it's just not our generation.
Club Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 30,914
Likes: 16
From: Springfield, Ohio
The biggest change is shedding the HD Pirate image. HD is finally realizing that an image shift was necessary to move bikes again and most of us younger guys dont wanna look like our dad's out riding. A lot of my buddies ride metrics and relentlessly make fun of the HD guys, the ones that strap on bandana's and chaps on the weekend and are suddenly badasses, it's just not our generation.
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 5,865
Likes: 168
From: Potsdam, NY
Right now HD makes more money from their financial services division, financing the sale of new bikes, and selling bike parts and accessories than they do from actually selling bikes. If they don't continue to sell new bikes though the other areas of profitability will dry up.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 12,946
Likes: 32
From: Colorado Springs, CO
It's easy to get the "young generation" to pipe in with what they want to see.
Problem is, getting them to put their money where their mouth is.
Age aside, it's easy to talk a good game, but things amazing change when it's time to cough up the bucks.
Guys like Roland Sands are helping alot in getting a new demographic interested, and harley has shifted that way with their "dark" sporties, and a few big twins. Fatboy lo is pretty cool. Not too sure about the chrome rattlecan paint on the pipes....
Not sure about the Roland Sands "RSD" 300 buck air cleaners though
The prices could be brought down, but are we willing to start seeing plastic oil tanks, chrome plated plastic parts, painted ABS plastic gas tanks, etc.?
Because that's what it's going to take to offer the bikes much cheaper than what they are.
The competition is doing just that! Do we like our steel stuff? Do we want the quality controls? The AMF years casued enough grief that all these years later the same old comments are still prefelant (leak all the time, unreliable)
It comes at a price, guys.
The market is so saturated with used bikes (hence the 400,000 units a year BS) that it's harder to sell a brand new bike. Attractiuve financing offers will keep them moving I guess.
~Joe
Problem is, getting them to put their money where their mouth is.
Age aside, it's easy to talk a good game, but things amazing change when it's time to cough up the bucks.
Guys like Roland Sands are helping alot in getting a new demographic interested, and harley has shifted that way with their "dark" sporties, and a few big twins. Fatboy lo is pretty cool. Not too sure about the chrome rattlecan paint on the pipes....
Not sure about the Roland Sands "RSD" 300 buck air cleaners though
The prices could be brought down, but are we willing to start seeing plastic oil tanks, chrome plated plastic parts, painted ABS plastic gas tanks, etc.?
Because that's what it's going to take to offer the bikes much cheaper than what they are.
The competition is doing just that! Do we like our steel stuff? Do we want the quality controls? The AMF years casued enough grief that all these years later the same old comments are still prefelant (leak all the time, unreliable)
It comes at a price, guys.
The market is so saturated with used bikes (hence the 400,000 units a year BS) that it's harder to sell a brand new bike. Attractiuve financing offers will keep them moving I guess.
~Joe
Last edited by traveler; Feb 21, 2011 at 12:15 PM.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,036
Likes: 8
From: Temecula, CA
I'm a young guy and have ridden HD's for a long time. I think HD is doing a good job of making a transition now to the younger crowd. The nightster and 48, the blackline....the Dark customs etc. are all geared towards us.
The biggest change is shedding the HD Pirate image. HD is finally realizing that an image shift was necessary to move bikes again and most of us younger guys dont wanna look like our dad's out riding. A lot of my buddies ride metrics and relentlessly make fun of the HD guys, the ones that strap on bandana's and chaps on the weekend and are suddenly badasses, it's just not our generation.
The biggest change is shedding the HD Pirate image. HD is finally realizing that an image shift was necessary to move bikes again and most of us younger guys dont wanna look like our dad's out riding. A lot of my buddies ride metrics and relentlessly make fun of the HD guys, the ones that strap on bandana's and chaps on the weekend and are suddenly badasses, it's just not our generation.
Don't beleive me, then go find a recent Harley commercial showing bikes with a lot of chrome ridden by guys in their 40-50s. I can't remember seeing one anytime recently.
Cruiser
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
From: Oklahoma
You are absolutely right and the MoCo is addressing this as well. Go look at the ads they made for the new Darkline or "Cage Free Humans" and note the age of the actors in those commercials and what they are wearing as they ride. THAT should tell you that the company is gearing to go for the 20-30 something crowds.
Don't beleive me, then go find a recent Harley commercial showing bikes with a lot of chrome ridden by guys in their 40-50s. I can't remember seeing one anytime recently.
Don't beleive me, then go find a recent Harley commercial showing bikes with a lot of chrome ridden by guys in their 40-50s. I can't remember seeing one anytime recently.
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Joe Kucinski
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 453
Likes: 10
From: Wherever, MI
I can pretty much sum it up, sh*t like THIS is what RUINS HD for us young guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4mU8ZqMZPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4mU8ZqMZPU
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,946
Likes: 822
From: Nevada
I can pretty much sum it up, sh*t like THIS is what RUINS HD for us young guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4mU8ZqMZPU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4mU8ZqMZPU