Hey, folks. I apologize for the long post, but I want to be as thorough as I can. I've emailed FuelMoto and Thunder-Max and gotten different answers, and I'm interested in hearing from people who have knowledge but don't sell the products themselves.

I have experience working on cars and adjusting carbs, but I'm new to motorcycles and to tuning/EFI adjustments. The bike in question here is a 2008 Heritage Softail (FLSTC) with a Twin Cam. I bought it used, and it's heavily customized. The previous owner spent thousands on chrome and accessories, and the bike is very well cared for. I wouldn't be surprised if he invested as much into the engine, but I don't have a list of modifications available.

I know the bike has an intake and V&H Long Shots, as well as manual compression release valves. It struggles to start cold with the release valves open, and it won't start at all when it's hot unless they're closed. I SUSPECT he at least changed the cams, and I have no idea if he did more than that (displacement, compression, etc). For all I know, this engine could be stock, or it could be a 110ci kit. I've just been running it on 93 octane to be safe.

Unfortunately, the voltage regulator failed and burned out my ECM, and the tune that was on the bike can't be recovered. After doing some reading, it seems like my two best options are:
1) A Dynojet Power Vision (PV-1B) with the wideband Target Tune kit and a new ECM from Harley to replace my dead one.
2) A Thunder-Max ECU.

• ​​​​​​The Dynojet option will cost a lot more with the new ECM and the Target Tune kit, but it seems to be the industry standard. My local Harley dealer (a few miles away) and a local Indy tuner (an hour away) have both said they prefer to work on the Dynojet system.
• The Thunder-Max has the advantages of being cheaper than the PV+TT and also saving me money by not having to buy a new OEM ECM. The drawback is that it eliminates the OEM systems such as security and trouble codes, and it can be a pain for dealer service later on.

So at this point, I have three questions for y'all on the forum:
1) Is everything above valid, or am I making a mistake somewhere? Again, I'm new to bikes and to EFI tuning.
2) How do you determine a base map on an engine (to begin tuning) when you aren't certain of so many variables, including the displacement and CR?
3) Is there any reasonable way I can pick a safe base map with so many unknows and let one of these autotuners work their magic until I can ride it to a tuner? Or does this thing need to go on a dyno to be tuned safely before I ride it?

Thank you so much for any help. I've been without my bike for 6 weeks now, and I really wanna get this wrapped up.

 

Not and expert but fool around some. Since you have no idea what's done to the engine and from what you said seems like a lot I would go to a dyno jet tuner and let them just do it. He will most likely use a power commander. So look up in your area and see if one is near to you. I use a guy in Levittown Pa F.T.F. Performance They are about 120 miles from you.

 

If it were mine, I'd be tempted to remove the cam cover to see what was in there. Otherwise you have lots of unknowns about cam timing etc and if the lifters have been replaced. If may be an all stock engine, but not many ways to know if the previous owner can't tell you. And if you have to purchase an ECM, I'd look seriously at the ThunderMax because it replaces the ECM. That way you are not buying an ECM and a Dynojet tuner. But you still need to know what if any engine modifications have been done already.

I didn't see the current mileage, but if it's a little high it would be a good opportunity to check cam tensioner shoes and possibly lifters at the same time.

Paul

 

At the very least, pull the cam cover and get the numbers off the end of the cam. This will have to be accounted for in whatever tune you use. Displacement will just require more fuel and is an easy guess/change to make. If you're going to have a dyno tuner tune it, just get the tuning device and skip the Target Tune. When it comes off the dyno, it should be all set and not need the TT.

 

There is no need for the target tune system. I would say get a new ecm and have your tuner dyno tune it using the Powervision Tune license program. It would be great if you pulled the cams for inspection and identification,,,more than one reason to do that. Take the money you would have spent on the target tune, and figure out what cams you've got, then get it tuned. Once its done right, its set it and forget it,,,no need for target tune all AND if you ever do any other work you can just re-tune as needed.
m

 

Your local HD dealer can tell you any mods that were done at a HD dealer, if you give them your VIN number.

 

A tuner can figure how to get it tuned from experience and a good library of base tunes for that model/year bike.
Once the tuner finds a “friendly” (close) calibration to start with he’ll be able figure how to proceed with tuning.
Bob

 

Great responses, you guys are the best.

The bike is still sitting at Roundhouse Harley in Altoona, PA where it got towed after all the electrical fried. At this point, I'm thinking I'll wait for them to get the new ECM (has been backordered, should be there this week), and then I'll rent a truck and trailer to pick it up once all the electrical is functioning again. The Power Vision from Dynojet without the Target Tune wideband kit seems to be my best option for getting it tuned and keeping it tuned correctly long-term. Now, once the new ECM is in, I can either:
1) Trailer it home and do a minor teardown in the garage to check the cams myself, then reassemble it and rent a trailer again to take it to a tuner.
2) Trailer it to a tuner and pay them to do that labor and the tune all at once. I could then get a ride from a friend to pick up the bike and ride it home when it's ready.

FTF (Throttle City) is 200 miles away (3 hours)
1-Forty-1 Speed Cycles in Winchester, VA is 50 miles away (1 hour)
Harley Davidson of Frederick, MD is minutes away, but my understanding is that dealers can only tune to EPA standards(?)

I'm open to recommendations.

I bought it with 33,600 on it, and I've added another 4,500 since April.
​​​I'm not an engine guy. I understand the basic components, but I prefer to swap them rather than open them up. I'm not opposed to doing it, but I don't have the knowledge to look at those components you listed and identify what is or isn't stock, or to judge what is or isn't worn.

I tried, but my dealer said they didn't have any information to offer me.
​​​​​​
I appreciate the input. Thank you all.

 

I wish i had paid better attention to your info on your first post I am originally from G-Burg, myself. Just for the record, the dealership is not restricted on how they tune. On a bike such as yours I'm pretty sure that it wouldnt be an issue, what the issue would be is whether or not they had a proficient tuner on staff to start with, or not. You might contact Dyno Jet for a recommendation on someone in your area or llok here on this sight at the dyno tuner locator thread.
m

 

I have to be right up front and say I like the ThunderMax ECU, so I'm biased.

There are so many considerations when it comes to swapping out that black box. Since yours was fried, I'd consider the Tmax for several reasons.

1. It's infinitely tunable
2. You can tell it what A/F ratio you want and it'll make it happen.
3. Timing is adjustable

With those three things in mind, here are my thoughts, and we ALL know they may be worth almost as much as you paid for them. LoL...

We don't know the cams or engine size, but the Tmax's wideband 02 sensors will adjust to the A/F ratio designated. Sure, you may have to pick a tune, but if you look, the A/F ratios are all pretty much the same on the fueling. IMHO. (If I'm wrong, please let me know. But I've looked at a few maps.) the injector sizing in the tune might be different, but you could go in and see what yours are currently. Also, you would see that very early in the process by the amount of adjusting being done by Tmax. If it's adding or pulling a lot of fuel, you may need to adjust the fueling across the board. But, Tmax allows for that. If it's within the range of still controlling the fueling, I'd let it do its job and just keep an eye on it as tuning progresses. Plus, if you "AutoMap" the tune, those adjustments will become the new "tune" so further adjustments would not need to be as great. So long as your injectors have the bandwidth, Tmax should be able to get you the A/F ratio designated.

Also, I'm not positive if you would have the 12mm or the 18mm bungs for the O2 sensors. Wideband O2s use the larger, 18mm bungs, so that may play into the decision.

That leaves timing as the main concern. Unless I'm wrong, Tmax won't adjust for spark timing on an '08, only what is input into the map. But, you can reduce the timing throughout the entire map and work your way safely through increasing the timing, giving it a couple of degrees at a time. It's been my experience (limited compared to some) that the Tmax timing is likely safe already, but reducing it at the beginning of tuning will allow you to figure that out before the ping has a chance. Start at low rpm and fine-tune the timing for good drivability and torque, then move up in the RPM range. Another great thing about Tmax is that you can adjust timing across the entire RPM range with one setting, at various RPM within another single map, or at various load settings (degrees of throttle) on numerous maps for each RPM range! Tmax has a lot of options for setting timing. Just take your time.

The plus side, and why I like Tmax, is that you can make these changes without paying for another plug-in somewhere and, since you need to purchase an ECM and a way to tune it, this gives you everything in one package. I'm a self-professed tinker-er, so I enjoy this about as much as riding the bike. YMMV.

The only downsides:
1. It'll take some time to optimize the tune.
2. You must be cool-headed and work your way up through the tuning process. If you're a plug-and-play, WOT from the start kind of guy, this wouldn't be the way to go. Tuning is more than just "how much hp?" or "WOT Woo-hoos!"
You need to be able to pay attention to the engine and let it tell you what it wants. Many canned tunes are designed safe for folks who don't/won't/can't do that. For those who have the ability, there's a whole new world out there.

Again, IMHO. YMMV.
Good luck and let us know what you decide and how it works out. And, I welcome anyone's input in response. Always willing to learn! And, no. I am NOT affiliated with Tmax in any way. Just a fan of the ECU.