Totally confused
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Tourer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 393
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From: Gaylord Michigan
Totally confused
Is there anybody besides me that reads these post about tuning EFI, and just ends up scratching their head ? [8D] And before anybody ask what im confused about.... it's pretty much... EVERYTHING. I think i'd rather tune a good old carburetor anyday.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
RE: Totally confused
Let's just pick off one thing at a time. What is throwing you?
Here are the basics.
Cold air has more o2. This is good (Intake air temp)
Cold motors need more fuel (engine temp)
Motors work good at around 4000 RPM at the top and bottom not so good on top and at idle(VE tables)
Motorsneed more fuel if the throttle is opening fast (Throttle position sensor and the accelinrichment table)
Motors need to idle faster when cold (Idle air controler and the idle speed table)
Motors run best right before detonation (Ion sensing is way cool and part of why I went with a sert)
The ECU has to know where the motor is in the rotation so it knows when to spark(crank position sensor)
The air the the motor is trying to suck in is blocked by the throttles and to some degree the air filter. When sucked on hard theair does not have muck 02 in it. (Manifold absolute air presure sensor)
Motors like more fuel at full power and at idle for some reason. (AFR target tables)
Harleys have little short intakes that like to swipe fuel from each other. The back cylinder likes a little more fuel as it has trouble getting enough air to stay cool. (front and rear VE tables and spark tables)
Feel free to ask anything you want.
AW
Here are the basics.
Cold air has more o2. This is good (Intake air temp)
Cold motors need more fuel (engine temp)
Motors work good at around 4000 RPM at the top and bottom not so good on top and at idle(VE tables)
Motorsneed more fuel if the throttle is opening fast (Throttle position sensor and the accelinrichment table)
Motors need to idle faster when cold (Idle air controler and the idle speed table)
Motors run best right before detonation (Ion sensing is way cool and part of why I went with a sert)
The ECU has to know where the motor is in the rotation so it knows when to spark(crank position sensor)
The air the the motor is trying to suck in is blocked by the throttles and to some degree the air filter. When sucked on hard theair does not have muck 02 in it. (Manifold absolute air presure sensor)
Motors like more fuel at full power and at idle for some reason. (AFR target tables)
Harleys have little short intakes that like to swipe fuel from each other. The back cylinder likes a little more fuel as it has trouble getting enough air to stay cool. (front and rear VE tables and spark tables)
Feel free to ask anything you want.
AW
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 32
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From:
RE: Totally confused
If you're not trying to be a smarta$$, then I'd suggest some serious reading. It looks like you own an 06 bike, and I'm betting that it is fuel injected.
That being the case you have two choices:
1) Remain in the past with your "I'd rather tune a carb" attitude, and pay someone else to work on your scooter.
2) Learn more about it so you are not confused.
Those are really your only two choices. There are countless tomes written on the subject, and from what I've read poking around here a bit, there seems to be a wealth of knowledge in here about it. Start at the beginning and approach it with a true desire to understand it, or trade in your 06 on a 76 and tune to your hearts content...
My $.02
That being the case you have two choices:
1) Remain in the past with your "I'd rather tune a carb" attitude, and pay someone else to work on your scooter.
2) Learn more about it so you are not confused.
Those are really your only two choices. There are countless tomes written on the subject, and from what I've read poking around here a bit, there seems to be a wealth of knowledge in here about it. Start at the beginning and approach it with a true desire to understand it, or trade in your 06 on a 76 and tune to your hearts content...
My $.02
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
RE: Totally confused
In this graph(fliped from the way the sert SW presents it)on the lower left is the throttle position and on the bottom right is RPM. Vertical is the VE or the ability of the motor to suck air in percent. 70% means the motor is having trouble sucking air. Over 100% means that the intak and exhaust is doingthair jobs of sucking the old burned gass out and stuffing the new stuff in. Way over 100% generally means one of the fuel constents is messed up. We can get into this later if someone wants to go there. It gets a little geeky.
As you can see the motor really gets happy at full throttle and about 4000 RPM. The VE really drops (at least on this motor) at around 5500 and above. You can see from this map, that there is a really huge jump in fuel at about 15% throttle and 3500 RPM. This is most likely the fuel that you were intending to go to the fromt cylinder is getting swiped by the rear cylinder. This is often described as reversion. Either in the intake or the exhaust could be the cause. This is the sort of thing that takes a huge amount of time by the tuner to sort out. I intend to let the autotune feature in the Sert SW to take care of this part.
Hope this helps clear up some of the confusion.
AW
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Tourer
Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Gaylord Michigan
RE: Totally confused
Thanks for the information you guys. and no, i'm not being a smart ***. It would appear to me, by the number of posts in here of people asking questions, I'm not the only one confused.
I grew up around dirt bikes, and know all about swapping out mains, and pilot's and needles. and yes... dirt bikes are also going the way of EFI. I'll probably end up taking the easy way out and order a power commander from fuel moto.
I grew up around dirt bikes, and know all about swapping out mains, and pilot's and needles. and yes... dirt bikes are also going the way of EFI. I'll probably end up taking the easy way out and order a power commander from fuel moto.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
RE: Totally confused
Power commander has some serious limitations. They only work off base maps that PC does not let you get to. You do not have access to controling the O2s. Acceleration enrichment is rather lame (but so is AE in a sert). You get fairly limited data logging.
AW
AW
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Tourer
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 393
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From: Gaylord Michigan
RE: Totally confused
ORIGINAL: whittlebeast
Power commander has some serious limitations. They only work off base maps that PC does not let you get to. You do not have access to controling the O2s. Acceleration enrichment is rather lame (but so is AE in a sert). You get fairly limited data logging.
AW
So your saying you'd recommend the SERT ?
Power commander has some serious limitations. They only work off base maps that PC does not let you get to. You do not have access to controling the O2s. Acceleration enrichment is rather lame (but so is AE in a sert). You get fairly limited data logging.
AW
So your saying you'd recommend the SERT ?
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
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RE: Totally confused
Thats what I just bought. With all my experance with Megasquirt that is saying a lot. I hope I made the correct decision.
AW
AW
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Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2008
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From:
RE: Totally confused
ORIGINAL: 06Heritage
Thanks for the information you guys. and no, i'm not being a smart ***. It would appear to me, by the number of posts in here of people asking questions, I'm not the only one confused.
I grew up around dirt bikes, and know all about swapping out mains, and pilot's and needles. and yes... dirt bikes are also going the way of EFI. I'll probably end up taking the easy way out and order a power commander from fuel moto.
Thanks for the information you guys. and no, i'm not being a smart ***. It would appear to me, by the number of posts in here of people asking questions, I'm not the only one confused.
I grew up around dirt bikes, and know all about swapping out mains, and pilot's and needles. and yes... dirt bikes are also going the way of EFI. I'll probably end up taking the easy way out and order a power commander from fuel moto.
NE Way, no, you are not the only one confused, but if you set your mind to it, you do not have to stay confused. Do some reading, take some notes, and sort out all of the info, there is some excellent info available right here, and there are tons of other resources out there.
Computers are the way of the future, it's only going to get moreso, not less, you might as well take the plunge and learn them if you intend to screw around with scooters for awhile yet!!
Intermediate
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 32
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From:
RE: Totally confused
https://www.hdforums.com/m_181817/tm.htm
There is some excellent information, even if you don't read any farther than the first post...
There is some excellent information, even if you don't read any farther than the first post...