ECM vs Thundermax Autotuner.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Kentucky
Thanks for your input and knowledge. I don't have much knowledge of this subject and have to rely on folks like yourself and the "experts" at the dealer. It kind of makes me feel better that he might not have been feeding me a bunch of BS at the dealer. I really like the dealership and used them several times prior.
I decided to check more into the T-max update and get someone professional to take care of it for me. I really appreciate all the input..
I decided to check more into the T-max update and get someone professional to take care of it for me. I really appreciate all the input..
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
First off the stock ECM can be flashed for stage one mods.
Take offense at my post all you want... the above information is not correct. Yes the ECM can be flashed by a dealer, but for a True STage 1? That 'flash' doesn't cut it. People buy them everyday from their dealers, too. Still doesn't make it right. ANd... that dealer IS correct. The Digital Technician can only flash the STOCK tune into the ECM, along with the 'download'. It can NOT be used for a performance tune.
They get on here and state how well their bikes runs, etc...
AS COMPARED TO WHAT?
Do any of these guys have a lot of tuning info in their heads? Do they have any TRUE idea on what goes on inside of an ECM?
Of course not, or they would have DIY tuned their bike or took it for a dyno tune.
2007 up? Doesn't add fuel, doesn't change timing. It simply cannot. A motor vehicle dealer simply can NOT alter ANY EPA regulated stuff on a motor vehicle.
SEPST is rumored to be going away. I believe that, too. Ford, Chevy etc, do NOT have programmers and dynos in there dealerships.
It does (The download), I think alter a few of the lesser tables like AE, etc. Proper STage 1 takes a bit of an effort to get done to see the maximum increase in road manners and power. It takes timing and fuel changes to do this. It's snake oil the MOCO sells their customers. What that actually shows is: our bikes are pretty robust in what an engine can truly take and then run fine later. Like the desert testing or having a download instead of giving the bikes some fuel. All of this is why a 2013 bike runs way *** hotter than does a 2005 bike .... it's the EPA induced stuff hanging on the bikes we buy now.
I would rather see a friend have a fuel pak that do a download.
Inside the ECM, software switches get 'set' by the original flash to the software at the factory. "Tunes' and Tuning devices are made to alter those switches. And all of the performance tunes use different setting on the switches. The Dealer Digital Technician simply cannot reach the various ares that these switches reside. It takes a actual tuner to do the swicthes thing. It is made to first and foremost reach those switches.
Take offense at my post all you want... the above information is not correct. Yes the ECM can be flashed by a dealer, but for a True STage 1? That 'flash' doesn't cut it. People buy them everyday from their dealers, too. Still doesn't make it right. ANd... that dealer IS correct. The Digital Technician can only flash the STOCK tune into the ECM, along with the 'download'. It can NOT be used for a performance tune.
They get on here and state how well their bikes runs, etc...
AS COMPARED TO WHAT?
Do any of these guys have a lot of tuning info in their heads? Do they have any TRUE idea on what goes on inside of an ECM?
Of course not, or they would have DIY tuned their bike or took it for a dyno tune.
2007 up? Doesn't add fuel, doesn't change timing. It simply cannot. A motor vehicle dealer simply can NOT alter ANY EPA regulated stuff on a motor vehicle.
SEPST is rumored to be going away. I believe that, too. Ford, Chevy etc, do NOT have programmers and dynos in there dealerships.
It does (The download), I think alter a few of the lesser tables like AE, etc. Proper STage 1 takes a bit of an effort to get done to see the maximum increase in road manners and power. It takes timing and fuel changes to do this. It's snake oil the MOCO sells their customers. What that actually shows is: our bikes are pretty robust in what an engine can truly take and then run fine later. Like the desert testing or having a download instead of giving the bikes some fuel. All of this is why a 2013 bike runs way *** hotter than does a 2005 bike .... it's the EPA induced stuff hanging on the bikes we buy now.
I would rather see a friend have a fuel pak that do a download.
Inside the ECM, software switches get 'set' by the original flash to the software at the factory. "Tunes' and Tuning devices are made to alter those switches. And all of the performance tunes use different setting on the switches. The Dealer Digital Technician simply cannot reach the various ares that these switches reside. It takes a actual tuner to do the swicthes thing. It is made to first and foremost reach those switches.
Last edited by wurk_truk; Jul 8, 2014 at 09:44 PM.
Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 1,267
Likes: 6
From: Northern Michigan
wurk turk, or should I call you DUDE, thanks for admitting that I gave the correct info about the dealer being able to flash the ecm . Your further elaborations on why they arnt good just reinforces my beliefs and why I use TMAXs.
Nuff said.
Nuff said.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
It's your bike, but I encourage you to hold off on paying someone to perform firmware update and other diagnostic stuff until you give it a whirl. It's very easy and doesnt require extensive tech knowledge. Plus, you'll learn a lot doing it and that will enable you to do other things later such as automap. One of the things I really like about Thundermax (and it's not unique to this product) is that 90% of the things most guys ever really need to do to their ECMs can be done very easily in your own garage for no cost. If you order the cable from thundermax, you'll get it in about 2 days and that's plenty enough time to check out some of the instructional videos on youtube so you'll be ready to go as soon as the package shows up. Good luck!
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
You miss the point a bit. This is a site where we all give each other advice. Left unsaid is that the advice we give is GOOD advice. Stating a flash is available is stating you think that is good advice, when it is not.
And, as far as a TMax goes? In ANY DBW bike? I am 100% against those. Too big of a step backwards in time.
The OP can do what he wishes to do, and I wish him well with the help some are giving him, like Jim. But... before I, myself, plunked down a penny, I would revert back to the Delphi ECM, buy a TTS or PV for around $4-500 and have a LOAD based system running that bike.
In 2008? I get it why someone would have used a TMax. AT the time, that really was the best there was for a DIYer. But, times have changed since that time. Flash tuning came of age for the DIY guys, and if you have no personal knowledge of such? Why denigrate it?
I myself have personal knowledge of both systems, and me? Ask Jim...
... I will take the Delphi any time.... especially after 2007up bikes. For sure 2008 bikes. myself, again, I would even take it for bikes 2002 and up, but THAT is only me. I have a dyno to do those, but I fully understand using a TMax 2002 to 2004 bikes. GOOD DIY solution.
2005 and 2006 bikes can be converted to run O2 sensors just like their 2007 cousins for $100, and then one CAN run a PV or a TTS to tune those bikes.
Yes, the download simply stinks anymore and is not a viable TRUE solution to a Stage one. But a $450 TTS and some DIY time surely is. Those Delphis from 2008 and up are simply the best bet going. ION sensing and using a MAP sensor is the way to go.
And, as far as a TMax goes? In ANY DBW bike? I am 100% against those. Too big of a step backwards in time.
The OP can do what he wishes to do, and I wish him well with the help some are giving him, like Jim. But... before I, myself, plunked down a penny, I would revert back to the Delphi ECM, buy a TTS or PV for around $4-500 and have a LOAD based system running that bike.
In 2008? I get it why someone would have used a TMax. AT the time, that really was the best there was for a DIYer. But, times have changed since that time. Flash tuning came of age for the DIY guys, and if you have no personal knowledge of such? Why denigrate it?
I myself have personal knowledge of both systems, and me? Ask Jim...
... I will take the Delphi any time.... especially after 2007up bikes. For sure 2008 bikes. myself, again, I would even take it for bikes 2002 and up, but THAT is only me. I have a dyno to do those, but I fully understand using a TMax 2002 to 2004 bikes. GOOD DIY solution.2005 and 2006 bikes can be converted to run O2 sensors just like their 2007 cousins for $100, and then one CAN run a PV or a TTS to tune those bikes.
Yes, the download simply stinks anymore and is not a viable TRUE solution to a Stage one. But a $450 TTS and some DIY time surely is. Those Delphis from 2008 and up are simply the best bet going. ION sensing and using a MAP sensor is the way to go.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,543
Likes: 19
From: Ashland Ohio
StreetGlide08, you have a PM and who to get in touch with the really help you with that TMax. The rules do not permit me to link you to a different forum on an open forum.
This person may be who made the videos you watched.
Just because I don't like em so much anymore like I did in 2005 ... I want to be SURE your TMax is good and you not spend any money needlessly.
This person may be who made the videos you watched.
Just because I don't like em so much anymore like I did in 2005 ... I want to be SURE your TMax is good and you not spend any money needlessly.
Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
StreetGlide08, you have a PM and who to get in touch with the really help you with that TMax. The rules do not permit me to link you to a different forum on an open forum.
This person may be who made the videos you watched.
Just because I don't like em so much anymore like I did in 2005 ... I want to be SURE your TMax is good and you not spend any money needlessly.
This person may be who made the videos you watched.
Just because I don't like em so much anymore like I did in 2005 ... I want to be SURE your TMax is good and you not spend any money needlessly.
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Kentucky
Thanks for your input. It makes sense. Since the Tmax was on the bike when I bought it used, that's all I have to go by. One of my biggest concerns with having the TMax over the stock ECM and HD Tuner is that if I need the HD dealer to perform some work, they cannot do it without the ECM that came on the bike. I picked up my bike yesterday from the dealer and they did what they could to it (other issues that I carried there for to begin with) and I am completely satisfied with it. I did talk with the head tech/mech there and he explained to me what you posted about the "flash" for stage one. Their dealer will not even go that far with it. He showed me what he would recommend for my bike and why. Gonna weigh out all the options and talk with some more folks before making any major changes to my ride. But again, thanks for the info.
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Thread Starter
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Intermediate
Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
Who's telling you that? What kind of work? I typically pick non-HD shops primarily because they charge less in labor for same quality of work, but the t-max shouldnt be prohibitive for maintenance/repairs by HD. I had mine in Louisville HD earlier this year and they never even asked about it (and, of course, charged me about $100 more than the initial quote for the work).
Tourer
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 252
Likes: 1
From: Kentucky
Also, I had issues with the fuel reserve gauge and cruise control and the same dealer told me they could not look for the issue without the stock ECM on board so they could hook it up to their computers... I don't know.... The local bike shops around here do not have the best reps... I tend to stay away from them...