Just venting (pun intended)
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: OC California
Just venting (pun intended)
Okay, let's get started. I am sure all of this has been covered in previous posts but I need some attention. 
74' XLH. When I had the engine apart I had a serious brain malfunction and put the breather in out of time. Put a few miles on the bike and filled the primary with crank oil. I fixed the breather issue. Bike is running fine for a couple months with just a little (tolerable) oil transfer to primary. Now it has decided to start filling the primary again (not as bad as the breather problem of course but not tolerable). I know all about the transfer valve giving people a lot of headaches. Mine is not closed off. I am concerned that running (even for just a few miles) the bike with the breather out of time damaged the crank seal or the transfer valve. Oil does not drain into the crank from the tank while sitting so the check valve on the pump is fine. If I pull the primary cover and clean it all up to look for the leak can I turn it over a few times (electric) and hope to see oil coming from the problem spot? Got any other ideas on how to find this? Can I replace the crank seal (manual is at home) without splitting the cases? I expect Pinion to kick my *** with all the bad news here. 
74' XLH. When I had the engine apart I had a serious brain malfunction and put the breather in out of time. Put a few miles on the bike and filled the primary with crank oil. I fixed the breather issue. Bike is running fine for a couple months with just a little (tolerable) oil transfer to primary. Now it has decided to start filling the primary again (not as bad as the breather problem of course but not tolerable). I know all about the transfer valve giving people a lot of headaches. Mine is not closed off. I am concerned that running (even for just a few miles) the bike with the breather out of time damaged the crank seal or the transfer valve. Oil does not drain into the crank from the tank while sitting so the check valve on the pump is fine. If I pull the primary cover and clean it all up to look for the leak can I turn it over a few times (electric) and hope to see oil coming from the problem spot? Got any other ideas on how to find this? Can I replace the crank seal (manual is at home) without splitting the cases? I expect Pinion to kick my *** with all the bad news here.
Tourer
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 388
Likes: 0
From: West Tennessee
With the primary cover off the starter won't engage unless you hold the starter shaft with your thumb (I wouldn't recommed that though!) and have someone push the start button.
About the crank seal, I'm sure it could be replaced without splitting the cases, obviously the hard part would be getting the seal out. PG will likely know more about that though.
Get him PG!
About the crank seal, I'm sure it could be replaced without splitting the cases, obviously the hard part would be getting the seal out. PG will likely know more about that though.
Get him PG!
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
First off, I must say that I do not think having the breather out of time could have damaged either the transfer valve or the sprocket shaft oil seal. The breather timing is more related to the oil pump's scavenger section picking up the accumulated oil collected in the sump area of the pump and returning it back to the tank.
The oil would have failed to have been expelled (back to the tank if the breather timing was off) and as a result would have somewhat loaded up the base (lower end).
Then that excess oil would have been moved through the transfer valve and into the primary (pushed through by the downward pressure of the pistons). This is what I expect to have happen by the breather timing being off.
Now, if I understand correctly, you now have the breather timed correctly, but the primary case is getting flooded with engine oil?
If the oil is coming through the transfer valve, then I would think there is an excess amount of oil in the lower end. The scavenger section of the oil pump is not picking it up and pumping back to the tank.
If the sprocket shaft seal is leaking then it is leaking from the oil pressure going into the bearing on the left side crankcase (of course it is the left side...... duh).
So, you have to find out which of the 2 spots are allowing oil to leak into the primary. This is not going to be easy as a practical matter, but this is what I suggest doing.........
Drain all of the oil from the primary and transmission.
Remove the primary cover, and using lacquer thinner and a one inch paint brush, wash all of the oil from the primary area and items inside the primary. Engine sprocket, spring, aluminum crankcase backplate, transfer valve etc. Watch getting the LT on your paint!
Install the primary cover (cleaned of any oil) back on using 3 or 4 screws to locate it. As Sup2nr said, you need the cover on to use the electric starter.
Fire up the engine and run it for enough time to warm up the engine. You don't need to rev it up, just let it run slowly and warm up.
Then shut it off and remove the primary cover.
1) Is there engine oil inside the cover?
2) If so, can you determine if it comes from the transfer valve or the seal? As long as the engine has not been revved up creating a lot of wind inside, the oil track should be clear as to where it is coming from. Now you know which item is at fault (Hopefully you know at this point anyway)
If the oil comes through the transfer valve, I would go back and look at the breather timing again. When those pistons come down the breather opens (if timed correctly) and the excess oil gets pumped out and back to the oil tank.
If the oil comes from the seal, then there is good news and not so good news.
Good news: The seal goes in as a last item to go in except the sprocket shaft extension. So it goes on from the primary side.
The not so good news:
(1) You have to remove the old seal.
(2) The seal needs to be installed with a rather special tool because of having several inches of shaft sticking out that the seal has to travel down before it can be pressed into place in the case.
The special tool threads onto the end of the shaft and has a 'handle equipped nut' that threads against an installer barrel on the tool's spindle to draw the seal evenly into the case.
You will see a pic of the tool in the manual.
This tool can be made by you most likely, the hardest thing being matching the fine thread on the shaft end. You do not want to bugger up that thread!
Let us know what you find after doing the clean up and oil leak check if you decide to go that route.
I honestly do not know another way to find out where the oil is coming from. It is an unusual situation in my view. Good luck........ pg
The oil would have failed to have been expelled (back to the tank if the breather timing was off) and as a result would have somewhat loaded up the base (lower end).
Then that excess oil would have been moved through the transfer valve and into the primary (pushed through by the downward pressure of the pistons). This is what I expect to have happen by the breather timing being off.
Now, if I understand correctly, you now have the breather timed correctly, but the primary case is getting flooded with engine oil?
If the oil is coming through the transfer valve, then I would think there is an excess amount of oil in the lower end. The scavenger section of the oil pump is not picking it up and pumping back to the tank.
If the sprocket shaft seal is leaking then it is leaking from the oil pressure going into the bearing on the left side crankcase (of course it is the left side...... duh).
So, you have to find out which of the 2 spots are allowing oil to leak into the primary. This is not going to be easy as a practical matter, but this is what I suggest doing.........
Drain all of the oil from the primary and transmission.
Remove the primary cover, and using lacquer thinner and a one inch paint brush, wash all of the oil from the primary area and items inside the primary. Engine sprocket, spring, aluminum crankcase backplate, transfer valve etc. Watch getting the LT on your paint!
Install the primary cover (cleaned of any oil) back on using 3 or 4 screws to locate it. As Sup2nr said, you need the cover on to use the electric starter.
Fire up the engine and run it for enough time to warm up the engine. You don't need to rev it up, just let it run slowly and warm up.
Then shut it off and remove the primary cover.
1) Is there engine oil inside the cover?
2) If so, can you determine if it comes from the transfer valve or the seal? As long as the engine has not been revved up creating a lot of wind inside, the oil track should be clear as to where it is coming from. Now you know which item is at fault (Hopefully you know at this point anyway)
If the oil comes through the transfer valve, I would go back and look at the breather timing again. When those pistons come down the breather opens (if timed correctly) and the excess oil gets pumped out and back to the oil tank.
If the oil comes from the seal, then there is good news and not so good news.
Good news: The seal goes in as a last item to go in except the sprocket shaft extension. So it goes on from the primary side.
The not so good news:
(1) You have to remove the old seal.
(2) The seal needs to be installed with a rather special tool because of having several inches of shaft sticking out that the seal has to travel down before it can be pressed into place in the case.
The special tool threads onto the end of the shaft and has a 'handle equipped nut' that threads against an installer barrel on the tool's spindle to draw the seal evenly into the case.
You will see a pic of the tool in the manual.
This tool can be made by you most likely, the hardest thing being matching the fine thread on the shaft end. You do not want to bugger up that thread!
Let us know what you find after doing the clean up and oil leak check if you decide to go that route.
I honestly do not know another way to find out where the oil is coming from. It is an unusual situation in my view. Good luck........ pg
Last edited by piniongear; Mar 2, 2009 at 07:05 PM.
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: OC California
Thanks for the time guys. The oil is most definitely returning to the tank. The breather is timed correctly. Bike has been running with just a smidge of transfer for about 700 miles (not my daily rider) over the last few months. It just started being a big enough problem to address. Pulling the cover and cleaning it up was my plan. Not thinking (as usual) I did not think about the starter shaft (duh). I will let you know what happens. I have owned this bike for 30 years and had the engine out a couple of times. This problem is driving me nuts. While I have your attention it surges out of second gear at about 3 grand so I have to shift at 2900. Not fun. The damn transmission spechs out fine on the bench. Replaced second gear (dogs were worn) and the fork and the little furrels that go on the pawl carrier. Still does it. Your up Pinion. I would really like to ride this machine and quit working on it for a while. 
it surges out of second gear at about 3 grand so I have to shift at 2900. Not fun. The damn transmission spechs out fine on the bench. Replaced second gear (dogs were worn) and the fork and the little furrels that go on the pawl carrier. Still does it. Your up Pinion. I would really like to ride this machine and quit working on it for a while.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
So you replaced 2nd gear that had worn dogs. Which gear..... 2nd main, or 2nd countershaft?
Did you full inspect the gear(s) that connect to the 2nd gear? (mainshaft and countershaft)
This is the third gear and are the openings where the 2nd dogs engage worn? Replacing only one gear of a pair that mate may only be half of the solution. usually there is wear on both gears.
You are certain the shim clearances are correct and within spec?
Is the pawl carrier support shimmed out properly from the door using the .010 thick shim(s)?
It is really difficult to determine what is the problem from long distance without the trans where we can look at it, but I think it is a case of improper shimming or there is still a gear there with some wear that is causing it to jump out of second at higher rpm.
Until you can find the problem you want to be careful that the engine does not over rev and eat a valve and piston.
Yes, I wish I had a magic wand........... pg
Did you full inspect the gear(s) that connect to the 2nd gear? (mainshaft and countershaft)
This is the third gear and are the openings where the 2nd dogs engage worn? Replacing only one gear of a pair that mate may only be half of the solution. usually there is wear on both gears.
You are certain the shim clearances are correct and within spec?
Is the pawl carrier support shimmed out properly from the door using the .010 thick shim(s)?
It is really difficult to determine what is the problem from long distance without the trans where we can look at it, but I think it is a case of improper shimming or there is still a gear there with some wear that is causing it to jump out of second at higher rpm.
Until you can find the problem you want to be careful that the engine does not over rev and eat a valve and piston.
Yes, I wish I had a magic wand........... pg
Thread Starter
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 775
Likes: 2
From: OC California
Pinion, I can't remember which one I replaced (it's been over a year and I am getting old) but the mating gears seemed Okay. I took all of the gears up to Sporty Specialties and Kirk determined only one had to be replaced. I thought the shimming was right on but I screwed the pooch on the breather gear for no apparent reason too. After I discover the transfer problem I will probably pull the trans and try again since I have the cover off anyway. You haven't heard the last from me (unfortunately). By the time I get this thing straightened out I am going to be too damned old to ride it. Thanks for all of the help.
Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
OK Cal, that is about all you can do is check it again. I would look at the mating gears (second gear train) on both countershaft and mainshaft.
That and the shimming required is all you can do. If it were the pawls then I believe it would not jump out of gear only on second.
BUT...... Be sure to look at the notch in the gear shifter cam plate for wear at that second gear notch.
Keep us up to date on the work......... pg
That and the shimming required is all you can do. If it were the pawls then I believe it would not jump out of gear only on second.
BUT...... Be sure to look at the notch in the gear shifter cam plate for wear at that second gear notch.
Keep us up to date on the work......... pg
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Road Warrior
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: nj
Man you guys are good I wish i had the knowledge to start ripping apart the internals of the motors keep us posted thanks
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,035
Likes: 17
From: Houston Texas
The engines break..... then you fix them.
They break again,,,,,,,, and you fix them again.
And on and on and on...... After awhile, some of it begins to sink in.
pg
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 751
Likes: 6
From: 500 miles south from Artic Circle
Magazine HOT XL from year 1998 spring has good article how to rebuild your Ironhead transmission. Because of copyrights I don't post it here... PM ?
Last edited by sepixlh; Mar 4, 2009 at 12:14 AM.