LiveWire Harleys EV future
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
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From: Texas
I was thinking about this the other day, of how many people are griping about the LiveWire saying "but the other companies offer more range for less", and it sounds to me like "don't buy that Hemingway book, this other novel offers more pages and costs less!"
You can't judge a book by its cover and you can't judge a bike by a press release. Later this year they'll be available and then we can experience it and make informed decisions.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2018
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From: Virginia
If you want a LiveWire, but can’t afford one, then Harley has succeeded.
Because even though I want a LiveWire, I can't afford one and there are some good looking alternatives on the horizon that I probably can afford.
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This, exactly:
In another post, I suggested H-D's market research indicates (i) potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, but technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price; but (ii) there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept bike, but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles.
This is H-D positioning itself for a market that is coming, but whose time has not yet come.
"We dont expect mass-market adoption, McAllister says. In addition to parts and materials, the price of a new motorcycle is a function of the cost it takes to develop it, spread across the projected-sales volume. Because this is Harleys first electric motorcycle, the cost of new-production processes, equipment, and facilities, as well as employee training, are also a factor. McAllister wouldnt tell me the number of sales Harley is targeting for the LiveWire but, at $30,000, we can assume that number will be fairly low.
This is H-D positioning itself for a market that is coming, but whose time has not yet come.
I hope for HD that all their calculations and market studies will work just fine and for them to drop prices in a couple of years to make their EV available for more pockets.
This, exactly:
In another post, I suggested H-D's market research indicates (i) potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, but technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price; but (ii) there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept bike, but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles.
This is H-D positioning itself for a market that is coming, but whose time has not yet come.
In another post, I suggested H-D's market research indicates (i) potential customers are warm to an electric motorcycle in theory, but technological limitations of range and charging time, and the currently primitive charging infrastructure, make them unlikely to pull the trigger on any electric motorcycle in practice, at _any_ plausible price; but (ii) there is a lot of _goodwill_ to be gained by being _in_ the electric motorcycle market, now, with a real, for-sale bike and not merely a concept bike, but not a lot of _profit_ to be gained from trying to move large numbers of electric motorcycles.
This is H-D positioning itself for a market that is coming, but whose time has not yet come.
So, right now the situation here is at a pont were:
- southern countries have not enough electric station and the price of this bike is 30k
- a grey area in germany and central europe (i guess. saw a lot of tesla there in the summer, but in the area i was there were few electric stations... more than in italy and france for sure)
- northern europe with a lot of electric stations but bike prices are very high
This is, of course, my experience. Any other european has witnessed better charging stations availability?
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 3,132
From: Texas
Harley will have an entirely different lineup of inexpensive bikes, medium-priced bikes, even electric bicycles available to serve the lower-cost market segments.
Any other european has witnessed better charging stations availability?
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2018
Posts: 4,607
Likes: 3,312
From: Virginia
I don't expect the LiveWire's price to ever come down. I think they're trying to position it basically as their version of, say, the Porsche 911. It'll always be expensive, they'll just improve it over the years.
Harley will have an entirely different lineup of inexpensive bikes, medium-priced bikes, even electric bicycles available to serve the lower-cost market segments.
Harley will have an entirely different lineup of inexpensive bikes, medium-priced bikes, even electric bicycles available to serve the lower-cost market segments.
I'm not European and so cannot answer for Europe, but in America it appears that Harley is effectively building their own charging network; every Harley dealer that sells the LiveWire will also have a charging station. I would presume that the same situation will apply to Europe. Not that you necessarily want to stop by Harley dealers every time you need a charge when you're out and about, but -- I'm sure Harley sees it as a business opportunity; the more frequently they can get rich customers into their dealerships, the more chances they have to make sales, so having charging stations at the dealerships is a way to get rich LiveWire customers back into the dealerships more frequently.
Get the Livewire owners to the dealerships for the really fast Level III DC chargers (instead of the commonly available Level II fast chargers that are in most public places right now), while the customer waits 30 minutes for a charge they buy more T-Shirts and assless chaps.
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Grand HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 4,251
Likes: 3,132
From: Texas
Harley has said repeatedly that they need to get young riders and Millennials on bikes. They know that those folks don't have $20,000 to spend on a Softail or $30,000 on a LiveWire. When they announced the LiveWire, it seems like everyone glossed over that they also showed pics of a bunch of electric bikes, and they're aiming them at all price brackets. Heck, they're talking about having mini-Harley stores, boutique stores, carrying electric bikes and electric motorcycles for the urban Millennial. What you've always seen from Harley is not necessarily what they will be doing in the future. Heck, I wonder how many people here have ever seen a Harley Topper, a *scooter* they made for a few years...
Interesting point about getting rich people in the dealerships, I wonder if that is the reason for the Livewire to charge at the Level I rate even on Level II chargers?
Get the Livewire owners to the dealerships for the really fast Level III DC chargers (instead of the commonly available Level II fast chargers that are in most public places right now), while the customer waits 30 minutes for a charge they buy more T-Shirts and assless chaps.
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I don't expect the LiveWire's price to ever come down. I think they're trying to position it basically as their version of, say, the Porsche 911. It'll always be expensive, they'll just improve it over the years.
Harley will have an entirely different lineup of inexpensive bikes, medium-priced bikes, even electric bicycles available to serve the lower-cost market segments.[\quote]
Yup. I am more than sure that Livewire will keep being crazy expensive but i hope they will come up with something that is not an electric mountainbike that will cost more than a regular motorcycle.
I'm not European and so cannot answer for Europe, but in America it appears that Harley is effectively building their own charging network; every Harley dealer that sells the LiveWire will also have a charging station. I would presume that the same situation will apply to Europe. Not that you necessarily want to stop by Harley dealers every time you need a charge when you're out and about, but -- I'm sure Harley sees it as a business opportunity; the more frequently they can get rich customers into their dealerships, the more chances they have to make sales, so having charging stations at the dealerships is a way to get rich LiveWire customers back into the dealerships more frequently.
Harley will have an entirely different lineup of inexpensive bikes, medium-priced bikes, even electric bicycles available to serve the lower-cost market segments.[\quote]
Yup. I am more than sure that Livewire will keep being crazy expensive but i hope they will come up with something that is not an electric mountainbike that will cost more than a regular motorcycle.
I'm not European and so cannot answer for Europe, but in America it appears that Harley is effectively building their own charging network; every Harley dealer that sells the LiveWire will also have a charging station. I would presume that the same situation will apply to Europe. Not that you necessarily want to stop by Harley dealers every time you need a charge when you're out and about, but -- I'm sure Harley sees it as a business opportunity; the more frequently they can get rich customers into their dealerships, the more chances they have to make sales, so having charging stations at the dealerships is a way to get rich LiveWire customers back into the dealerships more frequently.
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