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They are indeed making a bike that doesn't appeal to their core market; that's really the entire point of all their new bike introductions. I don't fault them for that, I applaud them.
Well, here I disagree. There is no market share to take, because there's no market. How many bikes, in total, do Energica and Zero sell each year? Maybe 3,000? The current electric motorcycle market is infantile and irrelevant. As said before, Energica has 12 dealers. Harley could buy both Zero and Energica with the spare change they have laying around in their couch tomorrow, if that's what they wanted to do.
Harley doesn't care about Zero's or Energica's market share. They're attempting to get ahead of a new market. The Livewire will sell a few, maybe hundreds, maybe a thousand, I don't know, but not many. It's not intended to, it's a halo product. And every review that I've read has been utterly glowing about how excellent a bike it actually is. Expensive, yes, but exquisite. Which is exactly what they wanted. They've already shown that they have prototypes for several electric bikes, from a small urban scooter to an electric mountain bike to kids electric bikes, etc. They intend to be a MAJOR player.
Note, I'm not saying the Energica is a bad product, I love Italian bikes and if I had a dealer near me I'd probably already have one, I really like the Esseesse9. But the closest dealer is 200 miles away. Screw that. As for Zero, I've been following their developments for years, and if the Black Forest DSR had double the range I'd already have one. I have nothing against these products at all. I'm just saying that what they've accomplished is peanuts compared to what Harley intends to do. IMO.
and I disagree with you. There IS a market share to try and take BECAUSE it is a very small amount of people looking at electric motorcycles! Zero has been making bikes for 13 years! Enericga for 9!!! They are KNOWN brands to people looking at EV Bikes! It is ridiculous to assume that just because a major brand is entering the market that they are the only ones that matter.
Sure they could buy and sell the other manufacturers. And there is actually pretty good evidence that HD screwed over Alta specifically to drive them out of business, but NONE of that will give them a name in the VERY small market looking for an EV bike.
pop over to the EV bike forums. Not a brand specific one...a basic EV bike forum/page....pretty much a consensus that this bike is a non player due to price and battery size.
sure HD can SAY they have more in the works. For what? EV scooters are a thing already (Vespa, BMW, etc) so there is competition there. EV mountain bikes? I guess. But talk about an answer to a question nobody asked. How many mountain bikers you know talk about how easy they want their trek to be??
to think that HD is just gonna show up an own the market is crazy and sure as hell doesnt reflect with their current sales. Hope they get those other projects to market soon, because they are pretty late to the game.
Well, no points are awarded for making internet prophecies. We will see how things turn out. I agree with you that the current market is exactly as you describe. I just hold that the current market is irrelevant; it's early adopters fighting over which is better, Kaypro or Osborne ore Commodore or Atari or Sinclair, when the reality is that they're all bit players fighting over an insignificant, irrelevant market.
The market WILL BE enormous. Someday mass adoption will happen. And the major players in that market aren't going to be Zero or Energica or anything remotely like them. It'll be companies like Harley and Yamaha and Qingjiang.
I've seen this same dance played out in too many other markets to think it will turn out any differently this time.
So that brings the number of electric vehicles Harley has shown, or is currently selling, to 8. They're currently selling three, the Livewire and the two IRONe kids' balance bikes, and they've shown five prototypes: three traditional electric bikes, an electric scooter, and an electric "mountain bike" (but it's not a "bike" per se, because it doesn't have pedals).
Anyone who thinks the Livewire is a one-off, or an aberration, clearly isn't paying attention. Harley is serious, and they're coming in force. The market for electrics has nothing to do with the traditional Harley customer, and that's the whole point. They're going to go after urbanistas with little urban stores like Apple stores that will sell electric bikes like the ones listed here, and they're going after the utterly outrageously massive markets of India and China and southeast Asia, markets that have unholy pollution and crowding problems. They're going after commuters, those who Do Not Care about a maximum range of "only" 100 miles. They're going after Gen X and Gen Y and Gen Z and Millennials, those who don't have $30,000 and don't want to buy (or own) a giant touring bike. They're forming partnerships with companies like Qingjiang, who builds and sells a million motorcycles per year, and opening plants in places like Thailand so they can better serve the Asian markets.
I would not be so quick to dismiss them. They've got their eyes clearly open, they know what's up and where things are headed, and they're not banking their future on a few aging dentists who like to play "dress like a pirate" on weekends as they go to rallies and listen to mediocre ZZ Top cover bands. Apple was known for selling computers, and people complained bitterly when they got into music and cell phones. Amazon used to sell books. And someday 10 or 15 years from now we're going to look back at how Harley "used to" sell big huge touring motorcycles.
Last edited by FatBob2018; Dec 26, 2019 at 10:47 AM.
And since I'm fired up, I just found that there's a NINTH concept they've already shown. How did I miss this? They've shown a prototype of a middleweight EV, and it looks kind of awesome.
The middleweight EV concept bridges our EV technology to our rich history of racing and the legendary XR750. As the ultimate city bike, high-performance run-about or next-gen short tracker, this is H-D's vision of EV for the quick and competitive.
And since I'm fired up, I just found that there's a NINTH concept they've already shown. How did I miss this? They've shown a prototype of a middleweight EV, and it looks kind of awesome.
They can make 25 ebike models. The number of models is irrelevant. It is still a business. Either the eBikes excite customers resulting in sales that contribute to both revenue and profit in a meaningful way..... or they dont. If its the latter, the eBike craze will die an inglorious product death in 5-7 years. Poof... gone... just like the Vrod and Buell bikes.
OTOH, if consumers lineup to put hard cash down on eBikes, that makes a meaningful positive contribution to HDs annual financials, then the line extensions will expand to serve the customer demand. Its really no more complicated than that.
Everyone will get there first early sense of the HD eBike launch success when HOG reports their 4th Qtr results on January 28, 2020.
So that brings the number of electric vehicles Harley has shown, or is currently selling, to 8. They're currently selling three, the Livewire and the two IRONe kids' balance bikes, and they've shown five prototypes: three traditional electric bikes, an electric scooter, and an electric "mountain bike" (but it's not a "bike" per se, because it doesn't have pedals).
Anyone who thinks the Livewire is a one-off, or an aberration, clearly isn't paying attention. Harley is serious, and they're coming in force. The market for electrics has nothing to do with the traditional Harley customer, and that's the whole point. They're going to go after urbanistas with little urban stores like Apple stores that will sell electric bikes like the ones listed here, and they're going after the utterly outrageously massive markets of India and China and southeast Asia, markets that have unholy pollution and crowding problems. They're going after commuters, those who Do Not Care about a maximum range of "only" 100 miles. They're going after Gen X and Gen Y and Gen Z and Millennials, those who don't have $30,000 and don't want to buy (or own) a giant touring bike. They're forming partnerships with companies like Qingjiang, who builds and sells a million motorcycles per year, and opening plants in places like Thailand so they can better serve the Asian markets.
I would not be so quick to dismiss them. They've got their eyes clearly open, they know what's up and where things are headed, and they're not banking their future on a few aging dentists who like to play "dress like a pirate" on weekends as they go to rallies and listen to mediocre ZZ Top cover bands. Apple was known for selling computers, and people complained bitterly when they got into music and cell phones. Amazon used to sell books. And someday 10 or 15 years from now we're going to look back at how Harley "used to" sell big huge touring motorcycles.
Definitely, ICE vehicles will be and are being fazed out. Many large cities now tax the shoot out of ICE vehicles in the inner city and hundreds of others are passing the legislation to do so, Electric buses are being bought in the tens of thousands by cities and countries.ICE vehicles are being fazed out it's just very early in the timeline .The Livewire will be a short run halo product,a show and tell product and what replaces that model will have learned from the Livewire and be improved as production models.The first 500 Livewires have come with a numbered plaque, I will own one of those first 500 one day.
Definitely, ICE vehicles will be and are being fazed out. Many large cities now tax the shoot out of ICE vehicles in the inner city and hundreds of others are passing the legislation to do so, Electric buses are being bought in the tens of thousands by cities and countries.ICE vehicles are being fazed out it's just very early in the timeline .The Livewire will be a short run halo product,a show and tell product and what replaces that model will have learned from the Livewire and be improved as production models.The first 500 Livewires have come with a numbered plaque, I will own one of those first 500 one day.
Peace
Im not aware of any US city that has a special urban tax on ICE vehicles. Have you got any evidence for your statement : Many large cities now tax the shoot out of ICE vehicles in the inner city and hundreds of others are passing the legislation to do so,? Particularly the reference to MANY.
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