1957 Panhead Thoughts
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,503
Likes: 7,807
From: Long Island, New York
For your reference of what original looks like, AMCA recognition is a big deal for a bike.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37368142436...YAAOSwhz9hFAeB
https://www.ebay.com/itm/37368142436...YAAOSwhz9hFAeB
Thread Starter
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Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 173
Likes: 83
From: Pennsylvania
Not stock/correct:
Indicator lamps & visors
Floorboards and mats
Kicker arm assembly & starter cover
Cam case cover, engine cases, cylinders, D-rings (and allen screws), rocker arm covers, tappet blocks and screws
Carb air cleaner cover
Brake rod & pedal assembly
Oil lines
Mufflers & clamps
Spokes and nipples (which calls into question the originality of the rims as well)
Luggage rack
Front bumper
Frame stripped and recoated? As in powdercoat or paint because powdercoating is not correct
Lots of incorrect nuts and bolts
The term "restoration" is one of the most over-used words when it comes to bike builds. I would call the bike a "resto-mod". Someone took the bike apart and put it back together in a manner they thought fitting. If it was done correctly (even with aftermarket parts), it could be a very nice "daily rider".
It is a nice looking bike, but I would question the "originality" of the sum of the parts from looking at the pics.
RE: documentation & why it is important. Without tearing the bike apart to look at numbers and such you need to see what the owner states has been done to get the bike up to it current condition. That includes motor and tranny rebuild. Also ask to see if he has pics of the build.
Have you verifed that the VIN# is godd and matches the title? Have you checked to see that the belly numbers match?
And I too will ask the same question that johnjzjz has asked you...what is the seller's asking price?
As far as value, it's hard to say without a close up and personnel inspection and a look at the receipts, all of them. I would also ask about the HD mechanic that put it all together. Is he the mechanic he states to be?
I would suggest the seller probably had most of the work done by someone else which means the labor costs are thru the roof on his end and it his intent to get max value.
Ballpark, as it sits, on the west coast, probably around 12-15K.
Indicator lamps & visors
Floorboards and mats
Kicker arm assembly & starter cover
Cam case cover, engine cases, cylinders, D-rings (and allen screws), rocker arm covers, tappet blocks and screws
Carb air cleaner cover
Brake rod & pedal assembly
Oil lines
Mufflers & clamps
Spokes and nipples (which calls into question the originality of the rims as well)
Luggage rack
Front bumper
Frame stripped and recoated? As in powdercoat or paint because powdercoating is not correct
Lots of incorrect nuts and bolts
The term "restoration" is one of the most over-used words when it comes to bike builds. I would call the bike a "resto-mod". Someone took the bike apart and put it back together in a manner they thought fitting. If it was done correctly (even with aftermarket parts), it could be a very nice "daily rider".
It is a nice looking bike, but I would question the "originality" of the sum of the parts from looking at the pics.
RE: documentation & why it is important. Without tearing the bike apart to look at numbers and such you need to see what the owner states has been done to get the bike up to it current condition. That includes motor and tranny rebuild. Also ask to see if he has pics of the build.
Have you verifed that the VIN# is godd and matches the title? Have you checked to see that the belly numbers match?
And I too will ask the same question that johnjzjz has asked you...what is the seller's asking price?
As far as value, it's hard to say without a close up and personnel inspection and a look at the receipts, all of them. I would also ask about the HD mechanic that put it all together. Is he the mechanic he states to be?
I would suggest the seller probably had most of the work done by someone else which means the labor costs are thru the roof on his end and it his intent to get max value.
Ballpark, as it sits, on the west coast, probably around 12-15K.
He's asking 23k. Actually, I saw it on eBay and sent an email after the auction ended, inquiring that if the person reneged on the deal to let me know. It's been a few days and the bike is still available. I did see the other '57 Panhead for sale on eBay. The thing about value is, it's extremely improbable one can purchase a bike like this for 15k anywhere. 20k minimum for original vin and title match, even with the knockoffs. Question: are the cases and cylinders repops or are you talking about the fact there is or isn't paint on them? Much appreciated.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,481
Likes: 3,677
From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
#1 rule...a bike can only be original once. Architect's bike he posted up on the flea is just that. An OP/original finish bike will always fetch dollar.
Your seller is asking top dollar for what he claims is a "restoration". It is not. IF parts like the cylinders and heads are OEM, they are ruined because the edges of the fins have been ground flat (as they are with EVO models). You can't fix that ever. Now you get to search out an pay big bbucks for correcft parts. Same applies to things like the cam cover & D-rings. All that lowers the value and wrinkle paint and removal to get back to orginal finish only lowers it further.
In order to get that motor and tranny back to a stock finish, it requires removal of both, & disassembly of everything related. Then you get to reassemble it after you get that god-awful black wrinkle paint off. The price just got reduced even more because it is going to cost more to fix and even more if you cannot do the assembly/disassembly yourself.
Let's continue on, there are ways to ascertain if the sheet metal is original or repop. It would be interesting to determine if they are/are not. Depending on the inspection, the value could go up or down (but defintely down from the asking price because of the above). The tank badges and front fender tip may/may not be original but that too requires a up close look at.
If the frame is orginal there will be casting numbers that can identify it correctly; if the frame has been powdercoated it will be difficult because the coating is so thick.
Don't see a 20K price tag out here for a motor with correct title and repop parts. Think you would be making a mistake paying 20-23K for a resto-mod. JMO tho.
Your seller is asking top dollar for what he claims is a "restoration". It is not. IF parts like the cylinders and heads are OEM, they are ruined because the edges of the fins have been ground flat (as they are with EVO models). You can't fix that ever. Now you get to search out an pay big bbucks for correcft parts. Same applies to things like the cam cover & D-rings. All that lowers the value and wrinkle paint and removal to get back to orginal finish only lowers it further.
In order to get that motor and tranny back to a stock finish, it requires removal of both, & disassembly of everything related. Then you get to reassemble it after you get that god-awful black wrinkle paint off. The price just got reduced even more because it is going to cost more to fix and even more if you cannot do the assembly/disassembly yourself.
Let's continue on, there are ways to ascertain if the sheet metal is original or repop. It would be interesting to determine if they are/are not. Depending on the inspection, the value could go up or down (but defintely down from the asking price because of the above). The tank badges and front fender tip may/may not be original but that too requires a up close look at.
If the frame is orginal there will be casting numbers that can identify it correctly; if the frame has been powdercoated it will be difficult because the coating is so thick.
Don't see a 20K price tag out here for a motor with correct title and repop parts. Think you would be making a mistake paying 20-23K for a resto-mod. JMO tho.
Last edited by panz4ever; Aug 17, 2021 at 06:02 PM.
Grand HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 2,116
From: W. MI.
What Panz said is why you ask for documentation about a build. Someone can say something has been done, but has it? When paying that much, for a used bike and the claim to fame is it's a full restoration, documentation is worth its weight so you know for sure what has actually been done. No guessing.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 8,054
Likes: 8,079
From: Canada
I read the comments and having gone through a 62 and 66 restoration I can say dont get bent out of shape over spokes and spoke nipples unless the bike is to be judged at an AMCA event. I like the fact the current owner has had it since it was 3 years old and they didn't bastardize the bike. Before pissing all over this bike you have to ask yourself about all the other ones that are available for sale right now and what do they look like? Doubt you have 10 to chose from.
The signal lights are wrong because they never came with them originally. Easy to remove but I would rather than those than nothing.
Again, the spokes mean nothing
The fins on the heads you can undo with a pneumatic tool, Ive fixed other aluminum castings on cars with one where a repair is now invisible.
Dont like the front bumper take it off, it was an option.
A lot of bikes are running chinese generators. Because its converted to 12V who cares? You want to ride it and be able to buy light bulbs at the local pepboys
Good luck finding original exhaust. Do any of them have OEM? I saw a guy sell 1 muffler for $800 USD. No thanks. Again its a requirement for AMCA
I read here that AMCA doesnt have a problem with powder coated frames so I'll say it again. Who cares? Powder coating is better than paint.
Any nuts and bolts you find are wrong you can get Colony stuff thats either dead on or very close.
I think the price is okay based on what Ive seen and read and you can talk them down a bit, ride it and enjoy it.
The signal lights are wrong because they never came with them originally. Easy to remove but I would rather than those than nothing.
Again, the spokes mean nothing
The fins on the heads you can undo with a pneumatic tool, Ive fixed other aluminum castings on cars with one where a repair is now invisible.
Dont like the front bumper take it off, it was an option.
A lot of bikes are running chinese generators. Because its converted to 12V who cares? You want to ride it and be able to buy light bulbs at the local pepboys
Good luck finding original exhaust. Do any of them have OEM? I saw a guy sell 1 muffler for $800 USD. No thanks. Again its a requirement for AMCA
I read here that AMCA doesnt have a problem with powder coated frames so I'll say it again. Who cares? Powder coating is better than paint.
Any nuts and bolts you find are wrong you can get Colony stuff thats either dead on or very close.
I think the price is okay based on what Ive seen and read and you can talk them down a bit, ride it and enjoy it.
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 173
Likes: 83
From: Pennsylvania
#1 rule...a bike can only be original once. Architect's bike he posted up on the flea is just that. An OP/original finish bike will always fetch dollar.
Your seller is asking top dollar for what he claims is a "restoration". It is not. IF parts like the cylinders and heads are OEM, they are ruined because the edges of the fins have been ground flat (as they are with EVO models). You can't fix that ever. Now you get to search out an pay big bbucks for correcft parts. Same applies to things like the cam cover & D-rings. All that lowers the value and wrinkle paint and removal to get back to orginal finish only lowers it further.
In order to get that motor and tranny back to a stock finish, it requires removal of both, & disassembly of everything related. Then you get to reassemble it after you get that god-awful black wrinkle paint off. The price just got reduced even more because it is going to cost more to fix and even more if you cannot do the assembly/disassembly yourself.
Let's continue on, there are ways to ascertain if the sheet metal is original or repop. It would be interesting to determine if they are/are not. Depending on the inspection, the value could go up or down (but defintely down from the asking price because of the above). The tank badges and front fender tip may/may not be original but that too requires a up close look at.
If the frame is orginal there will be casting numbders that can identify it correctly; if the frame has been powdercoated it will be difficult because the coating is so thick.
Don't see a 20K price tag out here for a motor with correct title and repop parts. Think you would be making a mistake paying 20-23K for a resto-mod. JMO tho.
Your seller is asking top dollar for what he claims is a "restoration". It is not. IF parts like the cylinders and heads are OEM, they are ruined because the edges of the fins have been ground flat (as they are with EVO models). You can't fix that ever. Now you get to search out an pay big bbucks for correcft parts. Same applies to things like the cam cover & D-rings. All that lowers the value and wrinkle paint and removal to get back to orginal finish only lowers it further.
In order to get that motor and tranny back to a stock finish, it requires removal of both, & disassembly of everything related. Then you get to reassemble it after you get that god-awful black wrinkle paint off. The price just got reduced even more because it is going to cost more to fix and even more if you cannot do the assembly/disassembly yourself.
Let's continue on, there are ways to ascertain if the sheet metal is original or repop. It would be interesting to determine if they are/are not. Depending on the inspection, the value could go up or down (but defintely down from the asking price because of the above). The tank badges and front fender tip may/may not be original but that too requires a up close look at.
If the frame is orginal there will be casting numbders that can identify it correctly; if the frame has been powdercoated it will be difficult because the coating is so thick.
Don't see a 20K price tag out here for a motor with correct title and repop parts. Think you would be making a mistake paying 20-23K for a resto-mod. JMO tho.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 7,481
Likes: 3,677
From: Santa Klaus County, Cali
Dirty Dancer what hellonewman is definitely valid. Just decide what you are willing to live with regarding the bike you are considering, what you are willing to spend, then go for it and enjoy the bike for what it is, a nice piece of history.
That is the way I have gone about putting my 49 EL back together and also the way I have gone about putting my 65 FLH back together. I can tell you what exactly what is original, correct/not correct, OEM, NOS and repop on both. I have taken it a step further and documented just about all I can and taken a bunch of pics so that when the next caretaker comes along there is documentation and pics to verify what is there. Neither will ever see the inside area of an AMCA judging booth. Not why I own them or did the work on them.
That is the way I have gone about putting my 49 EL back together and also the way I have gone about putting my 65 FLH back together. I can tell you what exactly what is original, correct/not correct, OEM, NOS and repop on both. I have taken it a step further and documented just about all I can and taken a bunch of pics so that when the next caretaker comes along there is documentation and pics to verify what is there. Neither will ever see the inside area of an AMCA judging booth. Not why I own them or did the work on them.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 8,113
Likes: 9,504
From: central NC
Great looking bike and great thread. With the price of used bikes theses days, youd definitely have something many others don't have if the thing is a reliable rider/driver. Even if its not correct.
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Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 173
Likes: 83
From: Pennsylvania
I read the comments and having gone through a 62 and 66 restoration I can say dont get bent out of shape over spokes and spoke nipples unless the bike is to be judged at an AMCA event. I like the fact the current owner has had it since it was 3 years old and they didn't bastardize the bike. Before pissing all over this bike you have to ask yourself about all the other ones that are available for sale right now and what do they look like? Doubt you have 10 to chose from.
The signal lights are wrong because they never came with them originally. Easy to remove but I would rather than those than nothing.
Again, the spokes mean nothing
The fins on the heads you can undo with a pneumatic tool, Ive fixed other aluminum castings on cars with one where a repair is now invisible.
Dont like the front bumper take it off, it was an option.
A lot of bikes are running chinese generators. Because its converted to 12V who cares? You want to ride it and be able to buy light bulbs at the local pepboys
Good luck finding original exhaust. Do any of them have OEM? I saw a guy sell 1 muffler for $800 USD. No thanks. Again its a requirement for AMCA
I read here that AMCA doesnt have a problem with powder coated frames so I'll say it again. Who cares? Powder coating is better than paint.
Any nuts and bolts you find are wrong you can get Colony stuff thats either dead on or very close.
I think the price is okay based on what Ive seen and read and you can talk them down a bit, ride it and enjoy it.
The signal lights are wrong because they never came with them originally. Easy to remove but I would rather than those than nothing.
Again, the spokes mean nothing
The fins on the heads you can undo with a pneumatic tool, Ive fixed other aluminum castings on cars with one where a repair is now invisible.
Dont like the front bumper take it off, it was an option.
A lot of bikes are running chinese generators. Because its converted to 12V who cares? You want to ride it and be able to buy light bulbs at the local pepboys
Good luck finding original exhaust. Do any of them have OEM? I saw a guy sell 1 muffler for $800 USD. No thanks. Again its a requirement for AMCA
I read here that AMCA doesnt have a problem with powder coated frames so I'll say it again. Who cares? Powder coating is better than paint.
Any nuts and bolts you find are wrong you can get Colony stuff thats either dead on or very close.
I think the price is okay based on what Ive seen and read and you can talk them down a bit, ride it and enjoy it.
The bike is back for sale on eBay and actually, he doesn't have any of the receipts or documentation. He also changed the wording from "original title" to "title in hand."
Thread Starter
|
Cruiser
Joined: Oct 2017
Posts: 173
Likes: 83
From: Pennsylvania
Dirty Dancer what hellonewman is definitely valid. Just decide what you are willing to live with regarding the bike you are considering, what you are willing to spend, then go for it and enjoy the bike for what it is, a nice piece of history.
That is the way I have gone about putting my 49 EL back together and also the way I have gone about putting my 65 FLH back together. I can tell you what exactly what is original, correct/not correct, OEM, NOS and repop on both. I have taken it a step further and documented just about all I can and taken a bunch of pics so that when the next caretaker comes along there is documentation and pics to verify what is there. Neither will ever see the inside area of an AMCA judging booth. Not why I own them or did the work on them.
That is the way I have gone about putting my 49 EL back together and also the way I have gone about putting my 65 FLH back together. I can tell you what exactly what is original, correct/not correct, OEM, NOS and repop on both. I have taken it a step further and documented just about all I can and taken a bunch of pics so that when the next caretaker comes along there is documentation and pics to verify what is there. Neither will ever see the inside area of an AMCA judging booth. Not why I own them or did the work on them.