Colorado Springs
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Elbert, Colorado
RE: Colorado Springs
ORIGINAL: bobcowan
Well, it's that time of year again - Sturgis, Cripple Creek, and general goofing off.
I live in Colorado Springs. Which is a beautifull mid sized city, nestled up against the mountains with a beautifull view of Pikes Peak. This is a vacation paradise, and a tourist mecca. Unfortunatly, bikers are not welcome here.
CSPD view all motorists as a potential source of city income. We are the 4th largest speed trap in the US. The city collected more than $6M last year in traffic fines. They also like to write tickets to Harley's with loud pipes. If it's not the stock pipe with the EPA stamp on it, you're wrong. You get the ticket, and you pay the $75 fine. End of story. Fortunatly, it's not a moving violation or a repair citation. You just write a check to the city and go on your merry way.
As you ride through the area, DO NOT STOP HERE. You're not welcome. As one city council member stated, "Colorado Springs has never had reason to like the biker". No, I did not make that up.
Plan your trips to stop in Fountain (south), Monument (north), Falcon (east), or Woodland Park (west). Don't buy gas, food, snacks, oil, batteries for your vibrater. Nothing. Don't even stop at Pikes Peak H-D. You'll be tempted, because they are right there by the freeway. But don't do it. There will be other oppurtunities to buy T-shirts.
When you get home, drop a line to PPHD, the BBB, and/or the city council. Tell them you didn't stop, and why. Make sure they know that the city did not get any of your money. Maybe if the local businesses understand why you kept riding, they will put pressure on the city.
Well, it's that time of year again - Sturgis, Cripple Creek, and general goofing off.
I live in Colorado Springs. Which is a beautifull mid sized city, nestled up against the mountains with a beautifull view of Pikes Peak. This is a vacation paradise, and a tourist mecca. Unfortunatly, bikers are not welcome here.
CSPD view all motorists as a potential source of city income. We are the 4th largest speed trap in the US. The city collected more than $6M last year in traffic fines. They also like to write tickets to Harley's with loud pipes. If it's not the stock pipe with the EPA stamp on it, you're wrong. You get the ticket, and you pay the $75 fine. End of story. Fortunatly, it's not a moving violation or a repair citation. You just write a check to the city and go on your merry way.
As you ride through the area, DO NOT STOP HERE. You're not welcome. As one city council member stated, "Colorado Springs has never had reason to like the biker". No, I did not make that up.
Plan your trips to stop in Fountain (south), Monument (north), Falcon (east), or Woodland Park (west). Don't buy gas, food, snacks, oil, batteries for your vibrater. Nothing. Don't even stop at Pikes Peak H-D. You'll be tempted, because they are right there by the freeway. But don't do it. There will be other oppurtunities to buy T-shirts.
When you get home, drop a line to PPHD, the BBB, and/or the city council. Tell them you didn't stop, and why. Make sure they know that the city did not get any of your money. Maybe if the local businesses understand why you kept riding, they will put pressure on the city.
My MSF instructor in an El Paso county Sherrif that lives is Colorado Springs. His bike exceeds the noise limits and he rides all the time and hard. Most every motorcycle cop on duty waves to me and many times first. Our so called speed "traps" are assigned by the most complaints by citizens and rotated. They are not specially set up to get bikers, but speeders and any thing else illegal they catch.
Most every biker around here waves to you. There are 2 HD dealerships here among many other types of dealerships. <=== This should be a big voice. We have good peeps and bad peeps just like any other city. If you avoid Colorado Springs then how are we ever going to create an even stronger biker community. Our biker community is growing and growing strong. Bikers you are welcome here, they are just stricter sbout noise violations from cars or bikes. If you get hit for it at least there is just a fine to pay...if you have to pay it. I lived in places were they require proof you fixed the issue for the ticket. I hope to see you guys here!
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: Colorado Springs
ORIGINAL: MasterRye
I am really sorry to hear how you feel about were we live. I live in Elbert, but in the same county. I just moved out here just over a year ago. I lived in Colorado Springs prior to that for ten years. I have to strongly disagree with this thinking. Please do not stop comming to the Springs because of one point of view. This is mine if you do mind mind reading.
My MSF instructor in an El Paso county Sherrif that lives is Colorado Springs. His bike exceeds the noise limits and he rides all the time and hard. Most every motorcycle cop on duty waves to me and many times first. Our so called speed "traps" are assigned by the most complaints by citizens and rotated. They are not specially set up to get bikers, but speeders and any thing else illegal they catch.
Most every biker around here waves to you. There are 2 HD dealerships here among many other types of dealerships. <=== This should be a big voice. We have good peeps and bad peeps just like any other city. If you avoid Colorado Springs then how are we ever going to create an even stronger biker community. Our biker community is growing and growing strong. Bikers you are welcome here, they are just stricter sbout noise violations from cars or bikes. If you get hit for it at least there is just a fine to pay...if you have to pay it. I lived in places were they require proof you fixed the issue for the ticket. I hope to see you guys here!
I am really sorry to hear how you feel about were we live. I live in Elbert, but in the same county. I just moved out here just over a year ago. I lived in Colorado Springs prior to that for ten years. I have to strongly disagree with this thinking. Please do not stop comming to the Springs because of one point of view. This is mine if you do mind mind reading.
My MSF instructor in an El Paso county Sherrif that lives is Colorado Springs. His bike exceeds the noise limits and he rides all the time and hard. Most every motorcycle cop on duty waves to me and many times first. Our so called speed "traps" are assigned by the most complaints by citizens and rotated. They are not specially set up to get bikers, but speeders and any thing else illegal they catch.
Most every biker around here waves to you. There are 2 HD dealerships here among many other types of dealerships. <=== This should be a big voice. We have good peeps and bad peeps just like any other city. If you avoid Colorado Springs then how are we ever going to create an even stronger biker community. Our biker community is growing and growing strong. Bikers you are welcome here, they are just stricter sbout noise violations from cars or bikes. If you get hit for it at least there is just a fine to pay...if you have to pay it. I lived in places were they require proof you fixed the issue for the ticket. I hope to see you guys here!
However, the city leadership leaves a lot to be desired. A city councilman was quoted, "Colorado Springs has never had reason to like the biker". A motor patrolman/CSPD represntative stated, "If you don't have stock pipes, you're not welcome in our town." We have tried working with the city on this issue. I helped with a special task force that included local dealerships, CSPD, and the mayors office. A lot of man hours were expended coming to a reasonable comprimise. Promisies were made, and promises were broken. The bottom line at the DA's office is, if you have non stock pipes, you are guilty and have to pay the fine.
It's an interesting conflict. When we have a toy run or charity drive, we get lots of help. Last year we had CSPD escort for the christmas toy run. We had a mini rally in the downtown area recently. Hundreds of bikers into the blocked off main street. CSPD was present, pleasant, and cooperative. No hassles, no overbearing enforcement. Everything went well, and all had a good time. In a group we all seem to get along fine. But individually, we are often hassled. When ticketed, you are wrong and have to pay the fine. I was ticketed for having loud pipes in my garage.
This is not a new thing, it's been going on for years. Despite our best efforts, it seems to be getting worse and not better. We have tried the cooperation and reasoning method w/o results. Maybe if businesses place a little pressure on the city, things will change. But maybe not.
As for the speed trap, that's a well known issue in this town. Now it's known nationwide, since we are rated the #4 speed trap in the US. That's for all motorists, not just bikes. That's a whole nuther issue we are struggling with.
Advanced
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: Elbert, Colorado
RE: Colorado Springs
Well put bobcowan.[sm=deal.gif] You are right about many these issues, but the bike community is growing regardless. So we have a great future ahead for bikers. They are not going to miss money they do not see. You may agree it is about money most of the time to them. They need to see the money bikers contribute before you can take it away. Plus people high ranking or not do not speak for many of us, IHMO. There are also a increasing number of influential people taking to the motorcycling.
I think we need to continue to bring bikers here for positive influence. It is becomming easier to meet some one who has a friend that rides if they do not. With this continuing exspossure fair laws are ahead. Bring them, show them what bikers can contribute, it is happing anyways. Just not as fast as we would like. The more bikers we bring the more people we impress, the more we will gain, and the more we will find Council Members that ride. We should start turning all the City Council Member friends into bikers LOL! Then let him go away crying and lonely!
We could try to keep bikers away, but would that really help more? You may be right, but I need to advocate the other direction that I believe in more. Good discussion thread IMO and could views both ways.
EDIT... I am sorry I just realized I turned your post for ride trips into a political one. I am a nerd LOL [sm=icon_beat.gif]
I think we need to continue to bring bikers here for positive influence. It is becomming easier to meet some one who has a friend that rides if they do not. With this continuing exspossure fair laws are ahead. Bring them, show them what bikers can contribute, it is happing anyways. Just not as fast as we would like. The more bikers we bring the more people we impress, the more we will gain, and the more we will find Council Members that ride. We should start turning all the City Council Member friends into bikers LOL! Then let him go away crying and lonely!
We could try to keep bikers away, but would that really help more? You may be right, but I need to advocate the other direction that I believe in more. Good discussion thread IMO and could views both ways.
EDIT... I am sorry I just realized I turned your post for ride trips into a political one. I am a nerd LOL [sm=icon_beat.gif]
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: Colorado Springs
ORIGINAL: MasterRye
We could try to keep bikers away, but would that really help more? You may be right, but I need to advocate the other direction that I believe in more. Good discussion thread IMO and could views both ways.
We could try to keep bikers away, but would that really help more? You may be right, but I need to advocate the other direction that I believe in more. Good discussion thread IMO and could views both ways.
Most bikers are pretty laid back, IMO. Unless this jumps up and bites them personally, they tend to blow it off. I admit, I'm usually like that, too. But I've been in the middle of this for a while. And then I got a loud pipes ticket after it had all been settled! That was not $75 well spent. I talked with police officers. I talked with the DA's office. And I talked to the judge. Non-stock pipes = $75 fine. End of story.
Road Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 1
From: Rockies
RE: Colorado Springs
Perhaps this is targeting H-D bikes? I have friends who ride sportbikes, sport tourers, dual-sports in the Springs. Many of them have loud aftermarket exhausts. Not even an issue, never mentioned, business as usual.
Road Master
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 4
From: New Mexico
RE: Colorado Springs
Im heading to cripple creek co next week for the pow mia rally never been there, But on line it sound like a nice place . My ride will be from Grants N m 500 miles south,
[IMG]local://upfiles/3159/5D4DA7A198DC4A118183FA177CBAFAAF.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]local://upfiles/3159/5D4DA7A198DC4A118183FA177CBAFAAF.jpg[/IMG]
Advanced
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Colorado Springs
ORIGINAL: bobcowan
I love this area. You're right, the other bikers are very friendly, and the dealerships and local indy's are great. I always wave at the CSPD, and they usually wave back.
However, the city leadership leaves a lot to be desired. A city councilman was quoted, "Colorado Springs has never had reason to like the biker". A motor patrolman/CSPD represntative stated, "If you don't have stock pipes, you're not welcome in our town." We have tried working with the city on this issue. I helped with a special task force that included local dealerships, CSPD, and the mayors office. A lot of man hours were expended coming to a reasonable comprimise. Promisies were made, and promises were broken. The bottom line at the DA's office is, if you have non stock pipes, you are guilty and have to pay the fine.
It's an interesting conflict. When we have a toy run or charity drive, we get lots of help. Last year we had CSPD escort for the christmas toy run. We had a mini rally in the downtown area recently. Hundreds of bikers into the blocked off main street. CSPD was present, pleasant, and cooperative. No hassles, no overbearing enforcement. Everything went well, and all had a good time. In a group we all seem to get along fine. But individually, we are often hassled. When ticketed, you are wrong and have to pay the fine. I was ticketed for having loud pipes in my garage.
This is not a new thing, it's been going on for years. Despite our best efforts, it seems to be getting worse and not better. We have tried the cooperation and reasoning method w/o results. Maybe if businesses place a little pressure on the city, things will change. But maybe not.
As for the speed trap, that's a well known issue in this town. Now it's known nationwide, since we are rated the #4 speed trap in the US. That's for all motorists, not just bikes. That's a whole nuther issue we are struggling with.
ORIGINAL: MasterRye
I am really sorry to hear how you feel about were we live. I live in Elbert, but in the same county. I just moved out here just over a year ago. I lived in Colorado Springs prior to that for ten years. I have to strongly disagree with this thinking. Please do not stop comming to the Springs because of one point of view. This is mine if you do mind mind reading.
My MSF instructor in an El Paso county Sherrif that lives is Colorado Springs. His bike exceeds the noise limits and he rides all the time and hard. Most every motorcycle cop on duty waves to me and many times first. Our so called speed "traps" are assigned by the most complaints by citizens and rotated. They are not specially set up to get bikers, but speeders and any thing else illegal they catch.
Most every biker around here waves to you. There are 2 HD dealerships here among many other types of dealerships. <=== This should be a big voice. We have good peeps and bad peeps just like any other city. If you avoid Colorado Springs then how are we ever going to create an even stronger biker community. Our biker community is growing and growing strong. Bikers you are welcome here, they are just stricter sbout noise violations from cars or bikes. If you get hit for it at least there is just a fine to pay...if you have to pay it. I lived in places were they require proof you fixed the issue for the ticket. I hope to see you guys here!
I am really sorry to hear how you feel about were we live. I live in Elbert, but in the same county. I just moved out here just over a year ago. I lived in Colorado Springs prior to that for ten years. I have to strongly disagree with this thinking. Please do not stop comming to the Springs because of one point of view. This is mine if you do mind mind reading.
My MSF instructor in an El Paso county Sherrif that lives is Colorado Springs. His bike exceeds the noise limits and he rides all the time and hard. Most every motorcycle cop on duty waves to me and many times first. Our so called speed "traps" are assigned by the most complaints by citizens and rotated. They are not specially set up to get bikers, but speeders and any thing else illegal they catch.
Most every biker around here waves to you. There are 2 HD dealerships here among many other types of dealerships. <=== This should be a big voice. We have good peeps and bad peeps just like any other city. If you avoid Colorado Springs then how are we ever going to create an even stronger biker community. Our biker community is growing and growing strong. Bikers you are welcome here, they are just stricter sbout noise violations from cars or bikes. If you get hit for it at least there is just a fine to pay...if you have to pay it. I lived in places were they require proof you fixed the issue for the ticket. I hope to see you guys here!
However, the city leadership leaves a lot to be desired. A city councilman was quoted, "Colorado Springs has never had reason to like the biker". A motor patrolman/CSPD represntative stated, "If you don't have stock pipes, you're not welcome in our town." We have tried working with the city on this issue. I helped with a special task force that included local dealerships, CSPD, and the mayors office. A lot of man hours were expended coming to a reasonable comprimise. Promisies were made, and promises were broken. The bottom line at the DA's office is, if you have non stock pipes, you are guilty and have to pay the fine.
It's an interesting conflict. When we have a toy run or charity drive, we get lots of help. Last year we had CSPD escort for the christmas toy run. We had a mini rally in the downtown area recently. Hundreds of bikers into the blocked off main street. CSPD was present, pleasant, and cooperative. No hassles, no overbearing enforcement. Everything went well, and all had a good time. In a group we all seem to get along fine. But individually, we are often hassled. When ticketed, you are wrong and have to pay the fine. I was ticketed for having loud pipes in my garage.
This is not a new thing, it's been going on for years. Despite our best efforts, it seems to be getting worse and not better. We have tried the cooperation and reasoning method w/o results. Maybe if businesses place a little pressure on the city, things will change. But maybe not.
As for the speed trap, that's a well known issue in this town. Now it's known nationwide, since we are rated the #4 speed trap in the US. That's for all motorists, not just bikes. That's a whole nuther issue we are struggling with.
Having non-stock pipes doesn't mean you're guility of a crime. If you're paying tickets for loud pipes and they have no proof (ie sound pressure reading). You just got screwed. To stand up in court they need proof you broke the law. Some dim-wit local cop saying your pipes are too loud isn't enough. The burden of proof is on them. Yes some pipes are to loud and they should be given a ticket but you have to be able to prove it.
Now the real problem. Small town local cops and even State Troopers t
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: Colorado Springs
>> Having non-stock pipes doesn't mean you're guility of a crime. If you're paying tickets for loud pipes and they have no proof (ie sound pressure reading). <<
Sounds logical. Unfortunatly, that's incorrect. According to local law dogs, any non-stock pipe is too loud. They also think a stock pipe is too loud, but don't cite you when they're stock.
They write this as a "Quality of Life" issue. No, I didn't make that up. That's the section of the law this falls under. It's not a traffic offense, which is good and bad. Since it's not a traffic offense, there's no points or reporting to the insurance company. It's bad because the normal laws and procedures don't apply. For example, if a patrolman stops by your house during your birthday party and cites you for excessive noise, do you think he has to prove anything in court?
On that same note, if you get a ticket for speeding and take it to court, does the officer who wrote the ticket have to prove you were doing 55 in a 45? No, it's his word against yours and you're hosed. If you really think you are innocent until proven guilty, you are either very naive or very lucky.
As for the sound pressure reading (dB), that's a slippery slope we don't want to tread on. I mentioned I've been in the middle of this for a while, and even assisted with a city task force. There are a number of problems with a decible meter. Test parameters are difficult to duplicate. The equipment is expensive. And it leaves no room for discretion. According to the standards in my city, a stock 883 sporty would get a ticket nearly every time it went out. After 7pm in a residential zone, the limit is 50 dB. Heck, I think I can fart louder than that.
Sounds logical. Unfortunatly, that's incorrect. According to local law dogs, any non-stock pipe is too loud. They also think a stock pipe is too loud, but don't cite you when they're stock.
They write this as a "Quality of Life" issue. No, I didn't make that up. That's the section of the law this falls under. It's not a traffic offense, which is good and bad. Since it's not a traffic offense, there's no points or reporting to the insurance company. It's bad because the normal laws and procedures don't apply. For example, if a patrolman stops by your house during your birthday party and cites you for excessive noise, do you think he has to prove anything in court?
On that same note, if you get a ticket for speeding and take it to court, does the officer who wrote the ticket have to prove you were doing 55 in a 45? No, it's his word against yours and you're hosed. If you really think you are innocent until proven guilty, you are either very naive or very lucky.
As for the sound pressure reading (dB), that's a slippery slope we don't want to tread on. I mentioned I've been in the middle of this for a while, and even assisted with a city task force. There are a number of problems with a decible meter. Test parameters are difficult to duplicate. The equipment is expensive. And it leaves no room for discretion. According to the standards in my city, a stock 883 sporty would get a ticket nearly every time it went out. After 7pm in a residential zone, the limit is 50 dB. Heck, I think I can fart louder than that.
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Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 2
From: Colorado Springs, CO
RE: Colorado Springs
ORIGINAL: turbo54
Im heading to cripple creek co next week for the pow mia rally never been there, But on line it sound like a nice place . My ride will be from Grants N m 500 miles south,
[IMG]local://upfiles/3159/5D4DA7A198DC4A118183FA177CBAFAAF.jpg[/IMG]
Im heading to cripple creek co next week for the pow mia rally never been there, But on line it sound like a nice place . My ride will be from Grants N m 500 miles south,
[IMG]local://upfiles/3159/5D4DA7A198DC4A118183FA177CBAFAAF.jpg[/IMG]
What route are you taking? I hope you're not coming up I-25. That's just about the most boring route you could take. Take 285 up to Buena Vista, and then cut across on 24. Head south at Florissant. That takes you past the Florissant Fossil Beds and the llama farm, and it's my favorite road into Cripple Creek. There are no paved roads south out of Cripple Creek.
I'll look for ya. I'll ride a Harley and wear leather. Oh, and a hat.
Advanced
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From:
RE: Colorado Springs
Yes you're right they always find some way to get around it. Just another example of stupid laws and enforcement. The town doesn't like bikes and doesn't want you there. Hey, no problem I'll make sure I don't stop. Some towns are just that way. If I got a ticket just because I had non stock pipes and the local idot said they were too loud I'd spend the money to go back and fight that one, Lawyer in tow. What a bunch of BS from some little chicken $hit town. Exactly the point I was trying to make about little towns and law enforcement.
You're right about a court appearence. You're screwed before you ever show up. But, sometimes it's just the principle of the thing.
I got a 65 in a 55 out in CA not long ago. I was doing the speed limit at the time. Sent a check along with a letter contesting the ticket. I'm sure you know what happened. But, I still filed a complaint with the CHP about the officer and enjoyed a very heated discussion with the Commanding Officer of the CHP post he was assigned to. Didn't accomplish a damn thing, but made me feel better.
What's happened to America?
We're guilty until we prove ourself's otherwise.
I think it's best if I stay the hell outa CA for a while. lol
You're right about a court appearence. You're screwed before you ever show up. But, sometimes it's just the principle of the thing.
I got a 65 in a 55 out in CA not long ago. I was doing the speed limit at the time. Sent a check along with a letter contesting the ticket. I'm sure you know what happened. But, I still filed a complaint with the CHP about the officer and enjoyed a very heated discussion with the Commanding Officer of the CHP post he was assigned to. Didn't accomplish a damn thing, but made me feel better.
What's happened to America?
We're guilty until we prove ourself's otherwise.
I think it's best if I stay the hell outa CA for a while. lol