Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Snowflake, Arizona
Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
We all know that the VIN numbers need to match the title, but we sometimes get sorta excited when looking at a great shovel (or older) and we forget what we know. This is a reminder as the subject just came up again today in a post, and IMO wanted to remind all of us of thebuyer beware on VIN numbers.
I give credit to my shovel guru, Jeremy Buttram of Twins Motorcycles & Machining,who offered the following advise to me in my search for a shovel:
Beware No. 1. If there are no numbers on the base of the motor...(ground or "polished off)..you are looking ata HOT bike...and you must walk away! No exceptions in Arizona. For example: Here in Arizona Jeremy has three friends who laid out the money and went to get the title...and the motor vehicle department would not would transfer title....I think he said that in one case they even took the bike because they said it was stolen and did not belong to the guy who was trying to get title.....
Beware No. 2. If the motor and the title match, but not the frame, or the frame has no numbers....
beware before you lay out any cash. Visit the motor vehicle department before you let go of the your hard earned money to be sure what they will and will not do. Older bikes get really complicated. In Arizona Jeremey has seen where the motor vehiclewill try to call it a new construction if the numbers on the motor and frame do not match ( for example you have owned a shovel and put a new frame in it, then want to sell)... if motor vehicle calls it a new construction, you may get it title, butit will be titled with anew build date other than the year it was built,which would kill the valueof yourclassic....
Good luck in your search
Hogback
I give credit to my shovel guru, Jeremy Buttram of Twins Motorcycles & Machining,who offered the following advise to me in my search for a shovel:
Beware No. 1. If there are no numbers on the base of the motor...(ground or "polished off)..you are looking ata HOT bike...and you must walk away! No exceptions in Arizona. For example: Here in Arizona Jeremy has three friends who laid out the money and went to get the title...and the motor vehicle department would not would transfer title....I think he said that in one case they even took the bike because they said it was stolen and did not belong to the guy who was trying to get title.....
Beware No. 2. If the motor and the title match, but not the frame, or the frame has no numbers....
beware before you lay out any cash. Visit the motor vehicle department before you let go of the your hard earned money to be sure what they will and will not do. Older bikes get really complicated. In Arizona Jeremey has seen where the motor vehiclewill try to call it a new construction if the numbers on the motor and frame do not match ( for example you have owned a shovel and put a new frame in it, then want to sell)... if motor vehicle calls it a new construction, you may get it title, butit will be titled with anew build date other than the year it was built,which would kill the valueof yourclassic....
Good luck in your search
Hogback
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RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
Keep in mind also the Vin number will be abriviated on the engine and the one on the frame will be the full 1HD____. They used to only put the vin on the crankcase, not the frame. I think they started putting them on the frame also in 1980 or so. I cant remeber the year they changed from the year/model vin to the modern 1HD type. Does anyone else know these details?
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RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
My '68 FL was titled to the engine's serial number, which was (at least backin 1978) the only number the State of Kaleefornia will accept - the vin follows the motor from cradle to grave; frame matters not. The same goes for cars, especially when it comes to smog equipment and requirements. These rules may have changed over the years -I'd booked out of Kaleefornia over 10 years ago so thing may be different now.
My current shovel was retitled by the State of Colorado with a whole set of vin numbers that has no relation to the bike (nor Harley Davisions for that matter)forreasons which I have no clue since this was done 2 owners ago.For me, accurate vin numbers matters little (as long as they are legit) since I buy and build bikes (andcars)to ride and not for theirinvestment value; for collectors and especially investors, however,it isimperative that all numbers on the vehicleto be matching. I always and hadchecked out the vin before sending money to Oklahoma (I live in Washington state)to be safe. In most states you can check with the local DMVto see if a vin comes back as stolen prior to buying a vehicle (even out-of-state ones), which should give you some comfort.Each state, however,is different and has different rules on title transfers. Hogback has some good advice...caveat emptor!
My current shovel was retitled by the State of Colorado with a whole set of vin numbers that has no relation to the bike (nor Harley Davisions for that matter)forreasons which I have no clue since this was done 2 owners ago.For me, accurate vin numbers matters little (as long as they are legit) since I buy and build bikes (andcars)to ride and not for theirinvestment value; for collectors and especially investors, however,it isimperative that all numbers on the vehicleto be matching. I always and hadchecked out the vin before sending money to Oklahoma (I live in Washington state)to be safe. In most states you can check with the local DMVto see if a vin comes back as stolen prior to buying a vehicle (even out-of-state ones), which should give you some comfort.Each state, however,is different and has different rules on title transfers. Hogback has some good advice...caveat emptor!
Cruiser
Joined: May 2007
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RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
I had a 59 that I had bottomed out and broke the crankcase good. rather than repair it I bought a brand newhouse of horse power crankcase and built a nice little stroker, installed it into my frame and off I went to the California DMV, who sent me to the CHP, well to make a long story short. I was charged with altering a VIN. it took me about 6 months to get my bike back, and quite a few hours in court. what I should have done was talked to the CHP before changing the engine, and let them tag the frame before all this. The CHP are kind of **** at times, but I am now areformed good little biker living in the state of arkansas, and stay as far away from california as I can.
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Road Master
Joined: Mar 2006
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From: Snowflake, Arizona
RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
Asyou are very right wbogley, on the none VIN frames...therein is part of the problem when you go to register...they want to see not just the motor but the frame (an in CA in believe they will even now stamp the frame to match the motor). Funny, in AZ on a car they want to see the body VIN and not so much the motor, which makes it good on a car with a crate, etc.
Shovel4ever is like me, as long as it is legal I am good to go as I just want to ride and can not afford to get into the collection game, but for those who paying the price for a model or year.... beware.
crampfan...a second and even better witness as to whatcan happen.... even when you were doing nothing wrong...
Later
Hogback
Shovel4ever is like me, as long as it is legal I am good to go as I just want to ride and can not afford to get into the collection game, but for those who paying the price for a model or year.... beware.
crampfan...a second and even better witness as to whatcan happen.... even when you were doing nothing wrong...
Later
Hogback
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
Yep, will caveat with every state is different in how DMVs do it. Here's a couple of things that I keep in mind.
1) Pre 1970 bikes from Harley, there were only VIN on motors
2) After 1970 bikes, VIN on frame and motor must match to have a "good" Harley title
3) Customs with non-matching VIN numbers, most DMV will go with frame after 1970 and/or issue you a totally new VIN number (stamped) plate for your bike.
Things to watch for:
1) non-matching Harley frame and motor number.
2)somebody trying to sell you a 1970 later motor with title. The title isn't goingto be a true Harley title. Another personis probably riding around inthe frame (matching the motor)in another state with anaftermarket motor or a different harley motor, and their bike is titled off of the framenumber. You go toSturgis and they run those numbers, your bike gets impounded because there's another bike out there that is registered withthe same VIN number.
3) Another example isa Panhead motor in a Paughco frame. Well, it would probably be in the VIN number of the Paughco frame. What you want to do is fine a 1969 or earlier frame and retitle with the engine motor. Then you willhave a Harley Panhead.
Many willdebate on this, but I just throw it out there from what I know, so other people don't spend their hard earn money on an older bike and not getting what they thought they paid for. Good luck.
dave
1) Pre 1970 bikes from Harley, there were only VIN on motors
2) After 1970 bikes, VIN on frame and motor must match to have a "good" Harley title
3) Customs with non-matching VIN numbers, most DMV will go with frame after 1970 and/or issue you a totally new VIN number (stamped) plate for your bike.
Things to watch for:
1) non-matching Harley frame and motor number.
2)somebody trying to sell you a 1970 later motor with title. The title isn't goingto be a true Harley title. Another personis probably riding around inthe frame (matching the motor)in another state with anaftermarket motor or a different harley motor, and their bike is titled off of the framenumber. You go toSturgis and they run those numbers, your bike gets impounded because there's another bike out there that is registered withthe same VIN number.
3) Another example isa Panhead motor in a Paughco frame. Well, it would probably be in the VIN number of the Paughco frame. What you want to do is fine a 1969 or earlier frame and retitle with the engine motor. Then you willhave a Harley Panhead.
Many willdebate on this, but I just throw it out there from what I know, so other people don't spend their hard earn money on an older bike and not getting what they thought they paid for. Good luck.
dave
Road Master
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 942
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From: Grew up in Texas, moved to AZ
RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
Oh, one more thing. Some states only have registration papers forolder bikes, and that is just as good a a title. Again, know your states.Look at the VIN numbersclosely.Bring someone you know, if you are not sure.At the very least, ask folks on this site before you throw down that cash.
For example,I bought my 1967 Shovel in Conn and theseller only hadregistration papers. I went to title it in Texas, because I wanted a HARLEY title, the DMV ladygave me a hard time, because she didn't knowher job. I printed the Conn DMVparagraph and showed it to her. I got my Texas title.
OK, one last thing. If someone sells you a bike with a Harley frame and an enginemade of S&S /Delron/whatever case/etc..... It's not a Harley! I don't care if the title says it's a Harley, it isn't. Nothing wrong with buying the bike if it's legally titled as a "Harley" off of the frame number, but it's a HARLEY CLONE! And be sure to get the MSO for the engine with that.
dave
For example,I bought my 1967 Shovel in Conn and theseller only hadregistration papers. I went to title it in Texas, because I wanted a HARLEY title, the DMV ladygave me a hard time, because she didn't knowher job. I printed the Conn DMVparagraph and showed it to her. I got my Texas title.
OK, one last thing. If someone sells you a bike with a Harley frame and an enginemade of S&S /Delron/whatever case/etc..... It's not a Harley! I don't care if the title says it's a Harley, it isn't. Nothing wrong with buying the bike if it's legally titled as a "Harley" off of the frame number, but it's a HARLEY CLONE! And be sure to get the MSO for the engine with that.
dave
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RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
Yep... 69 on down if you have the motorw/ title, you can build your custom bike around that and not go threw all the bs withall the paper work and reciepts.But on the down side, agood running origional HD genny shovelmotorw/ title can sell for almost as much as65% - 75%of thecomplete scooter.
Before I headed to another state to buy my 68 shovel, I had afrienddo a check onthe vin number to make sure it was clean, and never reported stolen or reconstructed.
Before I headed to another state to buy my 68 shovel, I had afrienddo a check onthe vin number to make sure it was clean, and never reported stolen or reconstructed.
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From: Eagle River WI
RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
I had a 1979 shovel where the frame numbers didn't match the number stamped on the engine Looking into it with the help of Harley The motor company ran a number of bikes out of the factory with these non matching numbers. This was done to curtail theft As you can imagine the grief that came on Harley from various state motor licensing facilities! I carried a paper in my wallet with an 800 number from the Motor Co so cross referencing could be done if the police questioned the numbers Harley stopped this practice in 1980
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RE: Reminder: Beware on VIN numbers
On my 79 Shovel the numbers on the motor and the frame match. I made sure of that before I put out the cash. I also got the original bill of sale as I got her from the original owner. It was signed over to me on the original 1979 title. I did some sweet talking down at the DMV and walked away with the new title in my name and the original 1979 title too. Then I later moved to Georgia from Ohio. I had to do some more sweet talking at the Georgia DMV to get a Georgia title. They don't title vehicles older than 1987, bill of sale only. On a sad note, the original owner was killed 2 weeks after I bought my Harley when he hit a deer while riding his 1975 BMW 900R. At least I saved the Harley. While the original owner did mod her a little to suit his tastes, and I have also, I do have all the paperwork on an original Shovel. All changes are "bolt ons" and can be eaisly put back to original. She still even wears the original Coronado Blue factory paint on the tanks and fenders! I had to match it when I installed the hard bags. I did not buy her as an investment. I ride her almost daily. We have stopped in at several "Stealerships" over the last few years and I have been offered a profit to sell her by more than one. While I would love to have a new Road King with the big inch motor and 6 speed to travel the country on, I am not willing to give up my Shovel to get one. I think my sig says it best.
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