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Guest
Posts: n/a
Fritz;
The PC-V is a much more sophisticated device than the X14iED. The PC-V allows very fine granularity of tuning across the entire tuning range, allowing you to completely reshape the fuel curve. The X14iED is a simple plug-n-play device that will richen the closed loop fuel curve directly and can richen the open loop fuel curve indirectly a fixed amount, but the fuel curve is always based on the OEM curve.
The advantage of the X14iED is low cost and simplicity. While the PC-V might have provided your bike with higher power at 100% throttle, on EFI engines none of this translates to any improvement in power at partial throttle. Since the PC-V disables closed loop operation, you have to rely on the ability of the engine tuner to set the fuel map cells for every RPM/Engine load combination there is in the ECM. The X14iED is a closed loop only device, operating primarily under 4500 RPMs and under 40% throttle, which covers 95%+ of your riding. In these conditions, the X14iED is automatically adjusting the fuel mixture to 14.0:1.
Is one device 'better'? Not really. It is a matter of which is most appropriate for the type of upgrades on the bike and the style of riding the bike will experience, along with the expectations of the owner. As far as your AFR of 13.0:1, that is nothing more than a tuning issue with the PC-V. The PC-V can easily be set to any reasonable fuel ratio, provided the engine tuner has the knowledge and ability to make 'said' adjustments.
The PC-V is a fine device, but you are at the mercy of the person doing the tuning. For riders installing nothing more than exhaust and air cleaner upgrades, it works just fine, but paying $400-600 extra for tuning is not really required. Your HD ECM would have maintained the OEM AFR's on the engine. It will not go 'lean' despite what riders, mechanics and shops tell you. While there are some benefits to richening the mixture a bit, there was no overwhelming technical reason to remap your ECM. HD had printed this information in one of their own publications. So while I like selling my Nightrider line of products to riders, I also tell them that remapping for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades is optional. Do it because you are trying to resolve some specific issues, not because you were scared into believing your engine would melt down if you did not remap. And all that extra HP you got, most of that would have come for free even if you had not remapped. The ECM would have compensated on its own over 200-300 miles (italics added).
Stephen Mullen
S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc.
www.Nightrider.com <http://www.nightrider.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com <http://www.tuneyourharley.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com/forum/
You can find this same evidence on many other websites, or by writing to HD directly.
The "burning up your motor" is a myth perpetuated by guys who have only run carbs, and it was true back then, but not with modern fuel injection. It is possible to make your engine need more fuel than your FI can supply, but not with simple A/C and exhaust upgrades.
Last edited by revid; Nov 16, 2010 at 04:17 AM.
Road Master
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 933
Likes: 1
From:
I would think the check engine light would be on if the ECM couldn't compensate.There are O2 sensor codes. P0131 Front Oxygen Sensor Low
P0132 Front Oxygen Sensor High
P0134 Front Oxygen Sensor Inactive
P0151 Rear Oxygen Sensor Low
P0152 Rear Oxygen Sensor High
P0154 Rear Oxygen Sensor Inactive
P0132 Front Oxygen Sensor High
P0134 Front Oxygen Sensor Inactive
P0151 Rear Oxygen Sensor Low
P0152 Rear Oxygen Sensor High
P0154 Rear Oxygen Sensor Inactive
Ultimate HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,604
Likes: 38
From: Landrum, SC , elevation 986'
Yes, it will keep up. From Stephen Mullen, owner of S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc., the makers of the Nightrider X14iED:
Fritz;
The PC-V is a much more sophisticated device than the X14iED. The PC-V allows very fine granularity of tuning across the entire tuning range, allowing you to completely reshape the fuel curve. The X14iED is a simple plug-n-play device that will richen the closed loop fuel curve directly and can richen the open loop fuel curve indirectly a fixed amount, but the fuel curve is always based on the OEM curve.
The advantage of the X14iED is low cost and simplicity. While the PC-V might have provided your bike with higher power at 100% throttle, on EFI engines none of this translates to any improvement in power at partial throttle. Since the PC-V disables closed loop operation, you have to rely on the ability of the engine tuner to set the fuel map cells for every RPM/Engine load combination there is in the ECM. The X14iED is a closed loop only device, operating primarily under 4500 RPMs and under 40% throttle, which covers 95%+ of your riding. In these conditions, the X14iED is automatically adjusting the fuel mixture to 14.0:1.
Is one device 'better'? Not really. It is a matter of which is most appropriate for the type of upgrades on the bike and the style of riding the bike will experience, along with the expectations of the owner. As far as your AFR of 13.0:1, that is nothing more than a tuning issue with the PC-V. The PC-V can easily be set to any reasonable fuel ratio, provided the engine tuner has the knowledge and ability to make 'said' adjustments.
The PC-V is a fine device, but you are at the mercy of the person doing the tuning. For riders installing nothing more than exhaust and air cleaner upgrades, it works just fine, but paying $400-600 extra for tuning is not really required. Your HD ECM would have maintained the OEM AFR's on the engine. It will not go 'lean' despite what riders, mechanics and shops tell you. While there are some benefits to richening the mixture a bit, there was no overwhelming technical reason to remap your ECM. HD had printed this information in one of their own publications. So while I like selling my Nightrider line of products to riders, I also tell them that remapping for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades is optional. Do it because you are trying to resolve some specific issues, not because you were scared into believing your engine would melt down if you did not remap. And all that extra HP you got, most of that would have come for free even if you had not remapped. The ECM would have compensated on its own over 200-300 miles (italics added).
Stephen Mullen
S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc.
www.Nightrider.com <http://www.nightrider.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com <http://www.tuneyourharley.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com/forum/
You can find this same evidence on many other websites, or by writing to HD directly.
The "burning up your motor" is a myth perpetuated by guys who have only run carbs, and it was true back then, but not with modern fuel injection. It is possible to make your engine need more fuel than your FI can supply, but not with simple A/C and exhaust upgrades.
Fritz;
The PC-V is a much more sophisticated device than the X14iED. The PC-V allows very fine granularity of tuning across the entire tuning range, allowing you to completely reshape the fuel curve. The X14iED is a simple plug-n-play device that will richen the closed loop fuel curve directly and can richen the open loop fuel curve indirectly a fixed amount, but the fuel curve is always based on the OEM curve.
The advantage of the X14iED is low cost and simplicity. While the PC-V might have provided your bike with higher power at 100% throttle, on EFI engines none of this translates to any improvement in power at partial throttle. Since the PC-V disables closed loop operation, you have to rely on the ability of the engine tuner to set the fuel map cells for every RPM/Engine load combination there is in the ECM. The X14iED is a closed loop only device, operating primarily under 4500 RPMs and under 40% throttle, which covers 95%+ of your riding. In these conditions, the X14iED is automatically adjusting the fuel mixture to 14.0:1.
Is one device 'better'? Not really. It is a matter of which is most appropriate for the type of upgrades on the bike and the style of riding the bike will experience, along with the expectations of the owner. As far as your AFR of 13.0:1, that is nothing more than a tuning issue with the PC-V. The PC-V can easily be set to any reasonable fuel ratio, provided the engine tuner has the knowledge and ability to make 'said' adjustments.
The PC-V is a fine device, but you are at the mercy of the person doing the tuning. For riders installing nothing more than exhaust and air cleaner upgrades, it works just fine, but paying $400-600 extra for tuning is not really required. Your HD ECM would have maintained the OEM AFR's on the engine. It will not go 'lean' despite what riders, mechanics and shops tell you. While there are some benefits to richening the mixture a bit, there was no overwhelming technical reason to remap your ECM. HD had printed this information in one of their own publications. So while I like selling my Nightrider line of products to riders, I also tell them that remapping for exhaust/air cleaner upgrades is optional. Do it because you are trying to resolve some specific issues, not because you were scared into believing your engine would melt down if you did not remap. And all that extra HP you got, most of that would have come for free even if you had not remapped. The ECM would have compensated on its own over 200-300 miles (italics added).
Stephen Mullen
S&P Mullen Enterprises, Inc.
www.Nightrider.com <http://www.nightrider.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com <http://www.tuneyourharley.com/>
www.tuneyourharley.com/forum/
You can find this same evidence on many other websites, or by writing to HD directly.
The "burning up your motor" is a myth perpetuated by guys who have only run carbs, and it was true back then, but not with modern fuel injection. It is possible to make your engine need more fuel than your FI can supply, but not with simple A/C and exhaust upgrades.
I'll have to take your word for it. Me personally I wouldn't risk it. Unless they say "we will replace any damaged components".
Banned
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,594
Likes: 9
From: Bama
First, you do NOT need a fuel pak. This is a myth perpetuated by the purveyors of add-on fuel management systems in order to stay in business. Back in the days of carburetors, you had to change jets to compensate for the additional air flow. However, today the stock FI is more than capable of adjusting to a different A/C and/or exhaust, as long as you do no internal engine modifications. This is the entire purpose of the O2 sensors in the headers.
Second, a "Fuel Pak" is V&H specific, and doesn't work well with other exhaust. Yes, you have V&H pipes, but the Fuel Pak really isn't a great option even then.
Third, if you insist on getting an add-on controller, the most cost effective way to go is the Nightrider X14iED at around $100. This works in concert with the stock FI, but tricks it into running at 14.0:1 AFR, rather than the 14.6:1 AFR that HD is required to tune into your bike.
Second, a "Fuel Pak" is V&H specific, and doesn't work well with other exhaust. Yes, you have V&H pipes, but the Fuel Pak really isn't a great option even then.
Third, if you insist on getting an add-on controller, the most cost effective way to go is the Nightrider X14iED at around $100. This works in concert with the stock FI, but tricks it into running at 14.0:1 AFR, rather than the 14.6:1 AFR that HD is required to tune into your bike.
Guest
Posts: n/a
They are running "lean" from the factory (14.6:1 AFR) because the EPA says they have to. The FI will adjust to increased airflow in order to maintain that same AFR. It will not adjust to a richer condition, which seems to be what you are after. While there are some benefits to running richer than 14.6:1, it isn't necessary for you or the bike.
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