Wont start ALL the time
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Boynton Beach, FloriDuh
RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: Zeb
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
ORIGINAL: John3:16
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
Stage II
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
I just picked up a 2005 custom and it started just fine when I bought it on a 60 degree day. I tried showing my friends how it sounded and it would not start. We had a big change in the temp here. He did not have an owners manual so I am not sure if I am supposed to shut the gas off or any special instructions.Anyideas and I am also planning to put a stage one kit on it for around 350 for a dealership. Should I do it and what is a stage 2 kit?
Steve
Steve
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Joined: Apr 2007
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: cHarley
Not to sound pickey, but a 12v tester doesn't test for current flowit tests for voltage. It is not at all uncommon to measure the presence of voltage at a given contact point and still not have enough current flow to fire the circuit. This often occurs in high current circuits such as starting circuits and can be true when a bad connection (voltage or ground) allows voltage to be present but not enough current to flow.
ORIGINAL: Zeb
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
ORIGINAL: John3:16
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
A 12 volt tester indeed indicates a certain amount of current flow. You can't have a 12 volt reading without 12 volts present and 'flowing'. There cannot be the presence of voltage without the presence of current flow as well.
Electric current is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.
If an ammeter is needed to measure higher amperes of current flow, such as checking a battery or starter main and ground connection, then that's fine too. But to find a short in a small gauge wire switch, an inexpensive 12 volt tester is a great first step and often all that is needed. I've used them for 35 years working with DC, and they are a great first step tool to find shorts in primary wires.
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,320
Likes: 306
From: Boynton Beach, FloriDuh
RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: Zeb
A 12 volt tester indeed indicates a certain amount of current flow. You can't have a 12 volt reading without 12 volts present and 'flowing'. There cannot be the presence of voltage without the presence of current flow as well.
Electric current is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.
If an ammeter is needed to measure higher amperes of current flow, such as checking a battery or starter main and ground connection, then that's fine too. But to find a short in a small gauge wire switch, an inexpensive 12 volt tester is a great first step and often all that is needed. I've used them for 35 years working with DC, and they are a great first step tool to find shorts in primary wires.
ORIGINAL: cHarley
Not to sound pickey, but a 12v tester doesn't test for current flowit tests for voltage. It is not at all uncommon to measure the presence of voltage at a given contact point and still not have enough current flow to fire the circuit. This often occurs in high current circuits such as starting circuits and can be true when a bad connection (voltage or ground) allows voltage to be present but not enough current to flow.
ORIGINAL: Zeb
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
ORIGINAL: John3:16
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
A 12 volt tester indeed indicates a certain amount of current flow. You can't have a 12 volt reading without 12 volts present and 'flowing'. There cannot be the presence of voltage without the presence of current flow as well.
Electric current is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.
If an ammeter is needed to measure higher amperes of current flow, such as checking a battery or starter main and ground connection, then that's fine too. But to find a short in a small gauge wire switch, an inexpensive 12 volt tester is a great first step and often all that is needed. I've used them for 35 years working with DC, and they are a great first step tool to find shorts in primary wires.
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 873
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: cHarley
My only point is that some test lights will light with as little as .01A ( 10 milliamps). That much current can flow through a bad or weak connection basically giving you unreliable test results. Yes they are quick & convienient tools as long as the user understands there limitations.
ORIGINAL: Zeb
A 12 volt tester indeed indicates a certain amount of current flow. You can't have a 12 volt reading without 12 volts present and 'flowing'. There cannot be the presence of voltage without the presence of current flow as well.
Electric current is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.
If an ammeter is needed to measure higher amperes of current flow, such as checking a battery or starter main and ground connection, then that's fine too. But to find a short in a small gauge wire switch, an inexpensive 12 volt tester is a great first step and often all that is needed. I've used them for 35 years working with DC, and they are a great first step tool to find shorts in primary wires.
ORIGINAL: cHarley
Not to sound pickey, but a 12v tester doesn't test for current flowit tests for voltage. It is not at all uncommon to measure the presence of voltage at a given contact point and still not have enough current flow to fire the circuit. This often occurs in high current circuits such as starting circuits and can be true when a bad connection (voltage or ground) allows voltage to be present but not enough current to flow.
ORIGINAL: Zeb
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
ORIGINAL: John3:16
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
how was you able to determine that it was the run/stop switch??? Isthere a test that can be performed on the switch, or do I just replace it.?????
The next time it won't start, leave the switch on and check the current to the coil (primary side) and the starter. If there's no current to either of these, then follow the wires from these two things with a 12 volt tester to each junction, all the way to the switch, testing each junction for current, until you find the short. If there is current going into the switch, but none coming out when the switch is closed ('turned on') and there's supposed to be, then obviously it's the switch.
DC current is not rocket science. It's just a wiring system all linked to a charged, grounded battery connected to a charging system that is distributed through a mulitiple series of switches. Where there is an open switch, there will be no more current beyond that switch. Where's there's a closed switch, current will pass all the way along the closed wire to ground, providing current toevery electrical partin its path.
A 12 volt tester indeed indicates a certain amount of current flow. You can't have a 12 volt reading without 12 volts present and 'flowing'. There cannot be the presence of voltage without the presence of current flow as well.
Electric current is proportional to the voltage and inversely proportional to the resistance.
If an ammeter is needed to measure higher amperes of current flow, such as checking a battery or starter main and ground connection, then that's fine too. But to find a short in a small gauge wire switch, an inexpensive 12 volt tester is a great first step and often all that is needed. I've used them for 35 years working with DC, and they are a great first step tool to find shorts in primary wires.
Yes, that's why I never recommended a 12 volt light to find out all problems in a circuit. I merely said that "many" problems can be found out. And they can.
And if you buy the right 12 volt test light, a lot of them won't light unless there is the proper amount of amperes or "milliamps" as well. Most are designed to light at the 'average' amount of current as a common, average primary DC connection carries; at least the ones I've used.
I never recommended them to check the amperes of a battery or a starter connection, however. But they can still be useful to see if there is any connection at all, and they would be handy to check the primary wires going in and out of the mentioned switch the guy is having trouble with, to see if they are hot.
I've found all sorts of bad connections over the years with a simple 12 volt light, and they come in handy in probing hard to get at wires in cramped places. In such instances, by clamping the aligator clamp to a ground and pushing the pointed end through the insultation on the wire to the wire, one can test numerous wires to see if they are hot or not. Such an exercise is moredifficult to do in some
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 873
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
For the DC novice, here is what I was trying to explain:[/align][/align]http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...ng/a/bl300.htm[/align][/align]As I stated, a 12 volt test light is simply a great first step tool in finding DC electrical problems, and often all that is needed, and the one that you should begin with if you've never had any DC experience before. You can also carry one in your saddle bags in your bike tool kit without worrying as muchabout it getting stolen or taking up too much space, and it could come in handy in the mountains on a run or out in the country somewhere when you're broken down someplace.[/align][/align]You most definitely should obtain a ammeter as well, eventually, but a 12 volt tester is a good start, and when I started working with DC, it was a lot cheaper than an ammeter as well. Today, however, the price of ammeters have come way down from where they were in the early 70's when I started tinkering with DC.[/align][/align]
12 volt testers, at least the ones I've used, usually won't light when there's just a trickle of current going through a wire, and some of the better ones can be interchanged with different bulbs and fuses. Most are designed to light when there is the average amount of current/resistance as the primary wire attached to it carries on the average auto application. If it lit with only a smaller amount of current, it would basically be worthless and not fitto be a DC tester. Most manufactures of these little devices know this, and make them accordingly; but perhaps there's always those cheap ones made somewhere in some remote part of Pakistan or wherever that might not be made right; I don't know.[/align][/align]What this other fellow was trying to say is that applications such as a battery ora starter main wire from the batterymay have enough current to light the light, but not enough to turn the engine over, and this is indeed true, and an ammeter is thenneeded in these instances. But to find a problem in a smaller primary wire, a 12 volt tester very often is all that is needed.[/align]
12 volt testers, at least the ones I've used, usually won't light when there's just a trickle of current going through a wire, and some of the better ones can be interchanged with different bulbs and fuses. Most are designed to light when there is the average amount of current/resistance as the primary wire attached to it carries on the average auto application. If it lit with only a smaller amount of current, it would basically be worthless and not fitto be a DC tester. Most manufactures of these little devices know this, and make them accordingly; but perhaps there's always those cheap ones made somewhere in some remote part of Pakistan or wherever that might not be made right; I don't know.[/align][/align]What this other fellow was trying to say is that applications such as a battery ora starter main wire from the batterymay have enough current to light the light, but not enough to turn the engine over, and this is indeed true, and an ammeter is thenneeded in these instances. But to find a problem in a smaller primary wire, a 12 volt tester very often is all that is needed.[/align]
Club Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,320
Likes: 306
From: Boynton Beach, FloriDuh
RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: Zeb
For the DC novice, here is what I was trying to explain:[/align][/align]http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...ng/a/bl300.htm[/align][/align]As I stated, a 12 volt test light is simply a great first step tool in finding DC electrical problems, and often all that is needed, and the one that you should begin with if you've never had any DC experience before. You can also carry one in your saddle bags in your bike tool kit without worrying as muchabout it getting stolen or taking up too much space, and it could come in handy in the mountains on a run or out in the country somewhere when you're broken down someplace.[/align][/align]You most definitely should obtain a ammeter as well, eventually, but a 12 volt tester is a good start, and when I started working with DC, it was a lot cheaper than an ammeter as well. Today, however, the price of ammeters have come way down from where they were in the early 70's when I started tinkering with DC.[/align][/align]
12 volt testers, at least the ones I've used, usually won't light when there's just a trickle of current going through a wire, and some of the better ones can be interchanged with different bulbs and fuses. Most are designed to light when there is the average amount of current/resistance as the primary wire attached to it carries on the average auto application. If it lit with only a smaller amount of current, it would basically be worthless and not fitto be a DC tester. Most manufactures of these little devices know this, and make them accordingly; but perhaps there's always those cheap ones made somewhere in some remote part of Pakistan or wherever that might not be made right; I don't know.[/align][/align]What this other fellow was trying to say is that applications such as a battery ora starter main wire from the batterymay have enough current to light the light, but not enough to turn the engine over, and this is indeed true, and an ammeter is thenneeded in these instances. But to find a problem in a smaller primary wire, a 12 volt tester very often is all that is needed.[/align]
For the DC novice, here is what I was trying to explain:[/align][/align]http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troub...ng/a/bl300.htm[/align][/align]As I stated, a 12 volt test light is simply a great first step tool in finding DC electrical problems, and often all that is needed, and the one that you should begin with if you've never had any DC experience before. You can also carry one in your saddle bags in your bike tool kit without worrying as muchabout it getting stolen or taking up too much space, and it could come in handy in the mountains on a run or out in the country somewhere when you're broken down someplace.[/align][/align]You most definitely should obtain a ammeter as well, eventually, but a 12 volt tester is a good start, and when I started working with DC, it was a lot cheaper than an ammeter as well. Today, however, the price of ammeters have come way down from where they were in the early 70's when I started tinkering with DC.[/align][/align]
12 volt testers, at least the ones I've used, usually won't light when there's just a trickle of current going through a wire, and some of the better ones can be interchanged with different bulbs and fuses. Most are designed to light when there is the average amount of current/resistance as the primary wire attached to it carries on the average auto application. If it lit with only a smaller amount of current, it would basically be worthless and not fitto be a DC tester. Most manufactures of these little devices know this, and make them accordingly; but perhaps there's always those cheap ones made somewhere in some remote part of Pakistan or wherever that might not be made right; I don't know.[/align][/align]What this other fellow was trying to say is that applications such as a battery ora starter main wire from the batterymay have enough current to light the light, but not enough to turn the engine over, and this is indeed true, and an ammeter is thenneeded in these instances. But to find a problem in a smaller primary wire, a 12 volt tester very often is all that is needed.[/align]
Back to the topic and enough of our debate
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Road Warrior
Joined: Jan 2007
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
can I chime in ? as a commercial electrician I would suggest you go buy a decent meter , you can get a fluke that reads ac/dc, amps and continuity for about 70.00. thats pretty cheap for a tool you can use any where.
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
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RE: Wont start ALL the time
ORIGINAL: cHarley
My intent is not to argue with you but to inform Novice wrenches that test lights can be misleading. I use test lights but understand there limitations as you probably do. I consider people asking basic electrical questions to be novice mechanics and that is why I caution them on relying on test lights only. I've been applying myEE degree for the last 33 years.
Back to the topic and enough of our debate
My intent is not to argue with you but to inform Novice wrenches that test lights can be misleading. I use test lights but understand there limitations as you probably do. I consider people asking basic electrical questions to be novice mechanics and that is why I caution them on relying on test lights only. I've been applying myEE degree for the last 33 years.
Back to the topic and enough of our debate
One doesn't need an "EE degree" to learn and work on DC current, nor does one need a meter to find most DC shorts and problems, and I too was trying to make it easy for the guy and give him something to start with, rather than pile on him too much info at this point.
And I never said that a 12 volt testing light was all that he needed, just that it was a good, inexpensive start, something that everyone I know who works on DC also uses quite often, including myself and apparently the guy who wrote the article which I linked to as well (he said he has 4 of them and that he uses them all the time as well; go figure).
Perhaps you could share with John 3:16 all of your "EE" expertise and tell him how to find the problem, then, since the only thing I've seen you offer so far is challenging what I wrote.
Trust me (and the guy who wrote the article), John 3:16, a 12 volt testing light is a good start. And if you can get a Volt/Amp/Ohm meter as well, then you will be doing even better with both.
I remember one time when I had a job working as a mechanic, that a guy who graduated from a very famous auto tech institute was working along side me, trying to figure out how to fix a back-up light problemon a station wagon. I got out a 12 volt testing light, if I remember correctly, traced the short down, and fixed it while he was still trying to get the steering wheel back on where he had thought the problem was (the problem was from under the car, on the back-up switch connected to the tranny). So much for "higher education."