No Device: HD/Delphi EFI Tuning Basics
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,928
Likes: 8,030
From: poway
As Tsani said earlier, the 4.9s don't use reference air and are supposed to be a lot faster if you believe the Internet that is
http://www.ecotrons.com/technology/b...su_42_sensors/
Bwaltz The exhaust flow to the cell itself I think I read that was improved by having more holes in the outer cover but the sensor should effectively be in the exhaust flow at all times, distance from the cover to the cell should be negligible unless you're thinking about the air flow dynamics and a pocket of gas within the cover that is not getting refreshed properly ...that would be down to sensor placement and angles etc (just guessing here).
A "blip" of the throttle ...sorry, the language barrier, no idea what you call it over there ...I meant just a quick short turn of the throttle and let it straight off again??
http://www.ecotrons.com/technology/b...su_42_sensors/
Bwaltz The exhaust flow to the cell itself I think I read that was improved by having more holes in the outer cover but the sensor should effectively be in the exhaust flow at all times, distance from the cover to the cell should be negligible unless you're thinking about the air flow dynamics and a pocket of gas within the cover that is not getting refreshed properly ...that would be down to sensor placement and angles etc (just guessing here).
A "blip" of the throttle ...sorry, the language barrier, no idea what you call it over there ...I meant just a quick short turn of the throttle and let it straight off again??
We Yanks call it throttle blipping too.. The are groups of Harley owners over here that love to blip. Some real dedicated bloomin' blippers, they are. I was questioning why it would be worth trying to sample a throttle blip..
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 19,928
Likes: 8,030
From: poway
Absolutely correct. This is why it is a mistake to view the sensor as a switch. The ECM and its programing is doing the "switching" of the fuel pulses and the switching action or more correctly, indication, is seen in the O2 Sensor output readings. Correct terminology is definitely a plus. It is like a physics teacher I had who would not accept an answer if stated as a number only. It's a number, it does not indicate anything with a proper description. Once the O2 sensor is warmed up properly, it is constantly outputting a MV reading. It does not switch anything. Also keep in mind that what you are seeing in the O2 readings is an after the event result and always will be.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
What are you looking for? I don't label files that way and don't pinpoint them out. I identify problem areas and try and tune them and just record file number 002 or 003.
But that's the thing. It is only what the data is telling you. Plenty of examples on the net of guys only reflashing with data the program spits out. Where are they usually having problems? You hear very little about the 70-100kpa area. It's parking lot speeds, idle , and the deceleration areas. After market exhaust systems don't do us any favors. Besides sensor placement. Free flowing exhaust induces reversion and can play hell with sampling. Add a cam with 50 degrees of over lap........
It can also be seen with consecutive auto tune calibrations. Take the idle cells only. One time they are 50, next they are 60, then 50, then 60, then 50....? Logs will show the excessive rich/lean. Or the bike is just driving rich and then richer. VE's in the idle just want to be really high and that doesn't verify with any other data.
That is how I identify troubled sampling areas. How the bike runs and sound also plays an very important roll. Don't know if I could get that in a screen shot with only 3 axis.
But that's the thing. It is only what the data is telling you. Plenty of examples on the net of guys only reflashing with data the program spits out. Where are they usually having problems? You hear very little about the 70-100kpa area. It's parking lot speeds, idle , and the deceleration areas. After market exhaust systems don't do us any favors. Besides sensor placement. Free flowing exhaust induces reversion and can play hell with sampling. Add a cam with 50 degrees of over lap........
It can also be seen with consecutive auto tune calibrations. Take the idle cells only. One time they are 50, next they are 60, then 50, then 60, then 50....? Logs will show the excessive rich/lean. Or the bike is just driving rich and then richer. VE's in the idle just want to be really high and that doesn't verify with any other data.
That is how I identify troubled sampling areas. How the bike runs and sound also plays an very important roll. Don't know if I could get that in a screen shot with only 3 axis.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,325
Likes: 140
From: Edinburgh UK
You're right, you wouldn't measure such a transient, I was just picking up on your question about response time for the sensor. As I understand them the times are so significant that (if you wanted to)(but just as an example) it may not be fast enough to see a short blip of the throttle.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Throttle blipping is a great example where you ignore the data and you just tune by ear. Starting is another good example of this. So, there is more to making a bike perform well than just looking at data. IMO.
Has anybody compared the NTK's to 4.2's as for as speed? In my reading I don't see them advertised as any faster just more accurate. How they use the reference air inside to produce the voltage. I can see how they aren't any faster.
Has anybody compared the NTK's to 4.2's as for as speed? In my reading I don't see them advertised as any faster just more accurate. How they use the reference air inside to produce the voltage. I can see how they aren't any faster.
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
Since it has been brought up in other topics. Maybe we can get a the straight scoop here.
It would be nice to hear about the swing. It has been discuss of how the ECM switch's from rich/ lean mode. Maybe Steve will take the time and go a bit more indepth on the generic strategy of this.
What controls how far rich or lean it can go?
When it sees that it is in lean mode. How does it get back to rich. Does it just add a bunch of PW? Does it add a bit of PW every firing cycle until it is rich mode? Same questions going back to lean mode once it is in rich mode. Is this the same strategy? Or does it treat one different than the other?
How does the limits and trouble codes play into this? How high or low before a DTC is set?
Is front and rear swinging parallel or perpendicular to each other. Is this the same in all calibrations? What makes the determination of which way to set it up?
Then this understanding could lead into fuel trims.
It would be nice to hear about the swing. It has been discuss of how the ECM switch's from rich/ lean mode. Maybe Steve will take the time and go a bit more indepth on the generic strategy of this.
What controls how far rich or lean it can go?
When it sees that it is in lean mode. How does it get back to rich. Does it just add a bunch of PW? Does it add a bit of PW every firing cycle until it is rich mode? Same questions going back to lean mode once it is in rich mode. Is this the same strategy? Or does it treat one different than the other?
How does the limits and trouble codes play into this? How high or low before a DTC is set?
Is front and rear swinging parallel or perpendicular to each other. Is this the same in all calibrations? What makes the determination of which way to set it up?
Then this understanding could lead into fuel trims.
Road Master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 23
With all this talk about 02 sensor response times and o2 sensor placement...
When someone claims the response time is .xxx sec for the sensor, what is that based on what? Full recovery (accurate to within some percent) after a violent change is exhaust flow, AFR and exhaust temp???
What fueling decisions are you going to make based on this information?
How do you detect that you have an issue going on?
Andy
When someone claims the response time is .xxx sec for the sensor, what is that based on what? Full recovery (accurate to within some percent) after a violent change is exhaust flow, AFR and exhaust temp???
What fueling decisions are you going to make based on this information?
How do you detect that you have an issue going on?
Andy
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Stellar HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,114
Likes: 666
I believe response time is stated as a specification by the mfg.
Poor sensor mounting (location and depth) can certainly foul sampling.
Not sure what you are asking??
If the vehicle has a running issue we look at what is happening at that moment using data logging.
If the exhaust system is creating the issue, fixing or "tuning around it" are the solutions.
Guaranteed if the bike has a running issue it can be found relatively quickly by identifying when and where the issue occurs and address it.
All done without scatter plots as we are looking for anamolies rather than trends.
Bob
Poor sensor mounting (location and depth) can certainly foul sampling.
Not sure what you are asking??
If the vehicle has a running issue we look at what is happening at that moment using data logging.
If the exhaust system is creating the issue, fixing or "tuning around it" are the solutions.
Guaranteed if the bike has a running issue it can be found relatively quickly by identifying when and where the issue occurs and address it.
All done without scatter plots as we are looking for anamolies rather than trends.
Bob
Road Warrior
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,923
Likes: 587
From: Alorton, Illinois
I'd look up the word violent. Unless I am beating someone with a muffler. I don't see how it fits here. I have never ran into a violent change while tuning. So, I don't understand the question.
There is another forum that talk about angry engines. Maybe they will understand over there.
Good luck