Ignition/Timing Map Advice
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Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2022
Posts: 39
Likes: 4
From: Denver
Ignition/Timing Map Advice
2009 Harley Street Glide
103. Keith Black Pistons, Adjustable push rods, Bobby Woods TW-7H Cam 575 lift with 4 Degree timing advance gear. Barnett Clutch. Power Commander with AutoTune. 2-into-2 no baffle straight pipe with 4" megaphone ends. Screamin Eagle Heavy Breather
Obviously the AutoTune will dial in the AFR, but I'd like to spend some time and effort to wok on the ignition side of the tune myself. Being that the motor is mechanically advanced 8 degrees, what are everyone's thoughts on plugging data in to adjust the ignition and timing? Bike came from San Diego and now resides in Denver. Bike runs hard, runs strong, but I wonder what HP and torque is being left on the table. I know I could simply take it in and have it done for me, but I was raised to be a do-it-myself guy and would like to take my best shot before resigning to setting a dyno appointment. Apologies if I left out any pertinent data. Just reply and I will be monitoring the thread and would be happy to provide ore details. Thank you in advance everyone.
103. Keith Black Pistons, Adjustable push rods, Bobby Woods TW-7H Cam 575 lift with 4 Degree timing advance gear. Barnett Clutch. Power Commander with AutoTune. 2-into-2 no baffle straight pipe with 4" megaphone ends. Screamin Eagle Heavy Breather
Obviously the AutoTune will dial in the AFR, but I'd like to spend some time and effort to wok on the ignition side of the tune myself. Being that the motor is mechanically advanced 8 degrees, what are everyone's thoughts on plugging data in to adjust the ignition and timing? Bike came from San Diego and now resides in Denver. Bike runs hard, runs strong, but I wonder what HP and torque is being left on the table. I know I could simply take it in and have it done for me, but I was raised to be a do-it-myself guy and would like to take my best shot before resigning to setting a dyno appointment. Apologies if I left out any pertinent data. Just reply and I will be monitoring the thread and would be happy to provide ore details. Thank you in advance everyone.
Tourer
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 282
Likes: 129
From: Palm City, FL
Without a way to monitor knock activity, I'm not sure how you can safely do this. With a tuner that can see the ECM data, you can add a few degrees, then run it and look for knock activity. None found, add a bit more, etc. When you see knock, take a degree or two back out. Power Commander and AutoTune don't have access to knock data.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18,757
Likes: 3,801
From: backwoods
We didn't have knock sensors years ago. You would adjust the dials as you say. Maybe back off on hot day, keep RPMs up. Not saying if you have a knock sensor you shouldn't use.
I have done dyno runs adjusting spark advance, No difference. I really shows up riding behavior and temps for most of us. Not saying it doesn't play a part, especially in more advance tuning.
I have done dyno runs adjusting spark advance, No difference. I really shows up riding behavior and temps for most of us. Not saying it doesn't play a part, especially in more advance tuning.
Cruiser
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 120
Likes: 12
From: Northern VA
Unfortunately, the only true way to get the timing tables right is on a dyno or with EGT data.
I'm in a similar situation with AFR being handled by the auto tune and generic timing tables. It runs well, gets good mpg, and doesn't ping. I know I'm leaving something on the table, but I'm satisfied.
I'm in a similar situation with AFR being handled by the auto tune and generic timing tables. It runs well, gets good mpg, and doesn't ping. I know I'm leaving something on the table, but I'm satisfied.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2021
Posts: 18,757
Likes: 3,801
From: backwoods
This last build, I took that 98" down to 95" with same jetting, and shimmed needle. It rides nices, doesn't hesitate. Maybe a little rich. I haven't taken it to top end. But rolling hils, I am not down shifting.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 20,030
Likes: 8,086
From: poway
2009 Harley Street Glide
103. Keith Black Pistons, Adjustable push rods, Bobby Woods TW-7H Cam 575 lift with 4 Degree timing advance gear. Barnett Clutch. Power Commander with AutoTune. 2-into-2 no baffle straight pipe with 4" megaphone ends. Screamin Eagle Heavy Breather
Obviously the AutoTune will dial in the AFR, but I'd like to spend some time and effort to wok on the ignition side of the tune myself. Being that the motor is mechanically advanced 8 degrees, what are everyone's thoughts on plugging data in to adjust the ignition and timing? Bike came from San Diego and now resides in Denver. Bike runs hard, runs strong, but I wonder what HP and torque is being left on the table. I know I could simply take it in and have it done for me, but I was raised to be a do-it-myself guy and would like to take my best shot before resigning to setting a dyno appointment. Apologies if I left out any pertinent data. Just reply and I will be monitoring the thread and would be happy to provide ore details. Thank you in advance everyone.
103. Keith Black Pistons, Adjustable push rods, Bobby Woods TW-7H Cam 575 lift with 4 Degree timing advance gear. Barnett Clutch. Power Commander with AutoTune. 2-into-2 no baffle straight pipe with 4" megaphone ends. Screamin Eagle Heavy Breather
Obviously the AutoTune will dial in the AFR, but I'd like to spend some time and effort to wok on the ignition side of the tune myself. Being that the motor is mechanically advanced 8 degrees, what are everyone's thoughts on plugging data in to adjust the ignition and timing? Bike came from San Diego and now resides in Denver. Bike runs hard, runs strong, but I wonder what HP and torque is being left on the table. I know I could simply take it in and have it done for me, but I was raised to be a do-it-myself guy and would like to take my best shot before resigning to setting a dyno appointment. Apologies if I left out any pertinent data. Just reply and I will be monitoring the thread and would be happy to provide ore details. Thank you in advance everyone.
I've not used the power commander but understand that it can adjust the timing.. What is unfortunate is that the power commander is TPS based only on timing and AFR and therefore the timing cannot be changed based on load.. The thing is that PCs are attached controllers and the stock ECU still controls timing via the MAP sensor. As I understand it, this makes 2 units messing with the timing and it can be an issue when motor is modified much above stock. You motor has significant changes. I suspect to get best running you should go to a single tuner, be it power vision, TTS or even Tmax.
I would guess you could simply try messing with the timing to see if the bike runs better. Do you have any noticeable pinging? I expect that most of what you'll be doing is backing the timing off unless someone has already loaded / modified a map that does so..
As stated above the only way to know for sure how much HP / TQ is sitting on the table is to have it dyno tuned..
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 20,030
Likes: 8,086
From: poway
We didn't have knock sensors years ago. You would adjust the dials as you say. Maybe back off on hot day, keep RPMs up. Not saying if you have a knock sensor you shouldn't use.
I have done dyno runs adjusting spark advance, No difference. I really shows up riding behavior and temps for most of us. Not saying it doesn't play a part, especially in more advance tuning.
I have done dyno runs adjusting spark advance, No difference. I really shows up riding behavior and temps for most of us. Not saying it doesn't play a part, especially in more advance tuning.
I'm curious about this.. When building motors, I typically find more HP on the dyno by backing off on the timing tho it can go both ways.. It's usually due to increased compression over a previous build requiring less timing.
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Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Mar 2021
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From: backwoods
I am not interested in high compression builds. I tour and have had issues getting premium gas. Plus I think it is harder on engines. But it depends on what you are building.
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2009
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From: Puyallup Wa.
I spent 4 weeks riding 4-5 days a week and working on timing tables with a power vision. Its difficult at best to hit all areas. I could go go for a whole day no spark knock. Then next day hit a cell example 5500 RPM 100 kpa and record a spark knock. Make adjustments ride bike a day or two all good then hit odd cell like 1750 RPM 15 KPA leaving stop sign and record a knock event. I have a dyno appointment sept 13. I was working timing after cam change because it was spark knocking too much on fuel moto provided map and where I want to take bike for tune was booked couple months out. My point is IMO you should get a dyno tune and enjoy the ride. I spent way too much time recording data and adjusting.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 20,030
Likes: 8,086
From: poway
Did a few runs, and nothing became of it. Not a high compression build, 9.7. .030 head gasket. Next time I may try a James which comes in .36, compared to stock .43 or .45? .43 I think.
I am not interested in high compression builds. I tour and have had issues getting premium gas. Plus I think it is harder on engines. But it depends on what you are building.
I am not interested in high compression builds. I tour and have had issues getting premium gas. Plus I think it is harder on engines. But it depends on what you are building.