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Parent metal bearings.....

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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 08:31 PM
  #21  
ridrkg's Avatar
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

VW has been running the cams in the aluminum heads without any additional bearings for many years. So has Honda and many other auto companies.I own an import auto repair shop.The only problem I ever see with them is if someone runs the engine very low on oil. Keep the oil clean and full, and just enjoy the ride. I think they will be fine. see ya Ken
 
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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 09:01 PM
  #22  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: megawayne

In typical Harley-Davidson fashion, it turns out that the '06 Dynas were the testbed for things to come. All of the '07 Twin Cams now have the same cam components that debuted on those Dynas. As of press time, H-D doesn't offer those '06/'07 parts to retrofit earlier Twinkies. We don't know if they will, but Andrews Products has designed cams and other integral parts to combine with factory H-D parts to convert any Twin Cam into '07 specs.
The 07 cam parts do retrofit to the earlier Twinkies. At this time you just need to use an Andrews cam. I pulled the gear drive out of my '05 and put this '07 conversion in mine about 1k miles ago. It's pretty quiet, the oil pressure is now up around 50 instead of 32 and it all runs smooth with the Andrews 26-N cam pumping the torque to 92 + lb-ft. The cam plate and oil pump for the '07 are way cheaper than the earlier models as priced from Zanotti's, they had the oil pump 50% discounted. So far I like it. When it takes a dump I'll let y'all know
 
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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 10:08 PM
  #23  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: raporte

Not sure I like the idea of going without ball or roller bearings in the cam plate. To let the 'oil' be the only thing that keeps the metals from fusing seems to be a big risk.
The 'oil' is the only thing that keeps the metals from fusing in virtually any type of bearing on the machine. What's the difference if it's a plain bearing such as this or one with rollers, *****, etc.? No doubt this is in part an effort at reducing noise. Without additional moving parts this type of bearing is much quieter in operation.
 
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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 10:11 PM
  #24  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

I think in american iron, donny has a good article on all this....
 
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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 10:24 PM
  #25  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: Dsanchez

2007 is the first year.
As stated earlier by 'megawayne' the '06 Dyna's had the redesigned 88" engine along with the first 6 speed. Even though it was a TC88 it was the same engine as the 96" that came out in '07 and now '08. All other's had the standard TC88's in them. I was reading the new American Iron at the store the other day and I don't think from that article that they thought this was a good idea. Reduce cost and complexity yes, but I'll take bearings any dayand I don't buy the part of increased durability, no way. And it's not even a plain bearing as "glens" stated, it's just a machined part of theparent metal without even a plain bronze bearing inserted in it.It was only to save a buck and have the engines crap out sooner and then sell you a new bike or a very expensive repair. As stated in the previous post Donny Peterson has a good article in the new issue of American Iron.
 
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Old Sep 8, 2007 | 11:04 PM
  #26  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: oldfartjc

Reduce cost and complexity yes, but I'll take bearings any day and I don't buy the part of increased durability, no way. And it's not even a plain bearing as "glens" stated, it's just a machined part of the parent metal without even a plain bronze bearing inserted in it.
In this context there are two main types of bearings: rolling element and plain. Take your pick. Just because there's no separate lining material doesn't make it any less a plain bearing.

I don't know exactly how much cheaper it would be than to use a roller or ball bearing anyway. Roughly the same amount of machining will be required either way (plain/rolling) but with the plain bearing the machining on both affected surfaces would have to be of a higher order; I'm pretty sure. Maybe in the end it wound up (so far) to be more cost effective to do it this way but I'll put my money on noise level being at least partially a driving force. Note the inner bearings are rollers of some type and that they're buried deep inside the cases where their noise level will be less discernible.

Don't forget that the EPA noise pollution regs don't discriminate regarding the source of the noise, just that it can only be such a level. By making the outer camshaft bearing a plain design, whether it cost more or less, they probably saved a half-dB for the left muffler to use.
 
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Old Sep 9, 2007 | 12:09 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: glens

...I'll put my money on noise level being at least partially a driving force...

...Don't forget that the EPA noise pollution regs don't discriminate regarding the source of the noise, just that it can only be such a level...
BINGO!
In an issue of American Rider a few months back, they interviewed one of the big whigs at H-D (if anyone cares I can dig up the issue & get names) and he stated that HD doesn't have a problem meeting emissions regs, and that they will have a harder time meeting EPA noise regulations than they will emissions regulations in the future. Air-cooled engines, especially OHV engines, are not at all quiet when compared to a water-cooled engines as they don't have water jackets to insulate the noise.
So if indeed we see H20 Glides in the future, it's more likely they will come about courtesy of the EPA's noise restrictions rather than emissions restrictions.
Who'da thunk it...

On an off-topic note... [sm=rant.gif]
The EPA- Environmental Protection Agency. What a joke. They are hell & gone from their original reason for being- protecting the environment. If you ever read up on how they "oversee" corporations and big industry you'll see how, in typical bureaucratic fashion, they have FUBAR'd the entire system so bad it can never be made to function properly. The manufacturing industry is pumping all sorts of poisons into the environment and cranking out 8 mpg SUV's by the thousands, while the EPA is humping the motorcycle industry's collective leg about a half a dB of noise coming from an engine delivering 50-60+ mpg.
What a sad sad state of affairs...
(OK, I'm done... )
 
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Old Sep 9, 2007 | 12:36 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

And for their next act, they're going after the railroads and their engines.

 
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Old Sep 9, 2007 | 02:55 AM
  #29  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

ORIGINAL: oldfartjc

ORIGINAL: Dsanchez

2007 is the first year.
As stated earlier by 'megawayne' the '06 Dyna's had the redesigned 88" engine along with the first 6 speed. Even though it was a TC88 it was the same engine as the 96" that came out in '07 and now '08. All other's had the standard TC88's in them. I was reading the new American Iron at the store the other day and I don't think from that article that they thought this was a good idea. Reduce cost and complexity yes, but I'll take bearings any dayand I don't buy the part of increased durability, no way. And it's not even a plain bearing as "glens" stated, it's just a machined part of theparent metal without even a plain bronze bearing inserted in it.It was only to save a buck and have the engines crap out sooner and then sell you a new bike or a very expensive repair. As stated in the previous post Donny Peterson has a good article in the new issue of American Iron.
Fluid-film bearings are greatly superior to roller bearings without doubt. You will never find a roller bearing in any machinery with high speeds, high loads,high torque conditions, or where vibration is an issue. While I have never designed a fluid-film bearing for as small an engine as in question here, I did design them for large industrial machinery such as turbines, compressors, pumps, etc. The only benefit that a roller bearing presents is that it takes longer to wear out in the event of engine failure. However a fluid-film bearing will last longer and perform better as long as certain design conditions exist such as required oil flow and oil pressure. The "oil film" as some have called it is not just the strength of the oil, but it it created from hydrodynamic pressures of the oil being dragged by surface friction into a converging wedge. The wedge is created simply by the difference of diameters of the shaft and bearing bore. The minimum oil thickness might only be from .0005" to .0015" but you will find the oil pressure inside that minimum thickness area is probably in the range of 50,000 psi. or greater. If you will notice, the bore of these bearings is lighter in color because there is a flash coatingof a white metal called babbitt. Babbitt is an alloy made of tin, copper, and antimony mostly and provides a layer of protection for the engine. Using babbitt creates a low surface friction when starting your engine, it allows contaminants in the oil to embed into the babbitt and not harm the bearing, and when failure does occur the cheaper bearing takes the damage and not the more expensive shaft, cam, piston rod, etc.

As wear occurs over the years within the bearing, this oil film thickness does not increase like you would find in worn roller bearings. The oil film thickness will always remain the same, the change will be the radial position of the shaft inside of the bearing (it is never on center but rather in direction of total load vectors). Also fluid-film bearings provide increased cooling abilities as the oil itself removes the heat generated within the bearing. Since the strength of thebearing material is not being used to support the loads, different bearing materials can be used that dissipate heat much faster such as chromium copper alloys. These are not "bronze bushings" as suggested but rather high-tech, highly efficient bearings used commonly in higher capacity engines and machinery. They are not even machined, but rather rolled from flat stock after the flash coating is done and designed to have what is called "crush" on them to establish the best vibration damping characteristics as well as to ensure a slightly elliptical close tolerance bore after installed for better oil flow and wedge configuration.

Outside the industrial machinery world little is known about fluid-film bearings, but they have been around for 50-60 years and are not something HD tho
 
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Old Sep 9, 2007 | 06:20 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Parent metal bearings.....

personally, the MOCO is always trying to save a buck and if their is a cheaper way of doing it they will.
Old style babbet bearings as used in autos are great as long as you keep heat down, oil clean and at the right pressure and most importantly volume.
Too much pressure will actually erode the babbeting off the base metal and heat breaks the oil down so you are no longer riding on the thin film of oil.
Newer oils withstsand the heat and break down better.
Allliquid cooled motors run slightly cooler at standstill or bumper to bumper traffic than our HD'S do. Thus the in head cam journals last longer.
But replace one that has failed. In many cases the bare head (no parts in it) is $400 plus dollars.
I imagine for the most part this new cam plate will hold up until the warranty runs out. Which is all the MOCO cares about.
They could care less how much it costs YOU to repair it afterwards.
Nope newer is not always better for the consumer.
Another reason for me to not upgrade.
 
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