Audio question
Former Sponsor
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 618
Likes: 9
Pre-amp out will make a considerable difference. There is no distortion to the pre-amp signal, so the amplifier is able to amplify a cleaner audio signal, resulting in better output to the speakers.
Whenever a speaker level output is amplified, the signal already contains any distortion from the previous amp as well as any signal manipulation done by the final amp to create a usable level. It works, and in most cases well, but pre-amp is much more desirable.
Seasoned HDF Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 56,052
Likes: 87,506
From: Western South Dakota
I wished that Kicker would get in the audio thing in bikes. Man they are the **** as far as I am coincerned. If my Hogtunes (amp, tweeter pod and amp) would sound as good as my I-Kick sound doc does for my Ipod I would be an extremely happycamper.
Advanced
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Elf vs. J&M
I have to chime in on this one. I have made a few posts concerning the Elf amp and before I purchased the Elf I did some research referencing the amp on another forum: http://www.diymobileaudio.com/. The following is a review that was done with amp.
"Sound review: Running a 9887 active to a front stage: Morel MT23 and 6.5 ID OEM; subwoofer was inactive for the test. Amps were sampled on the tweet stage only.
Benchmark amps tries ABCD: Zuki Eleets; Arc KS 900.6; Arc Mini; Elf Mini
Tracks used: Focal Demo Disc 1
Improvisation- Drum kit solo
Fantastic track for blending of tweet to midbass. This track seems to be recorded from the drummers viewpoint, so the drum kit fills the soundstage. About 1:35 into the song, a group of cymbal work walks across the soundstage giving a great opportunity to judge the impact to each cymbal as well as the resulting resonance.
Naima- Many delicate and detailed sounds with guitar/drums/synthesizer
The intro on this song has many interesting sounds like light windchimes, tambourine, bird chirping, and other unique sounds.
Spanish Harlem- primarily female vocal test track with piano and light guitar line, violin, background percussion
Grandmas Hands- A cappella male vocal
I kept all the gains about equal to level set the sound level expectation; All turned up about 1/10th of a turn.
First to note: All initial volumes were about on par; no real discernible difference.
All highs were detailed and soundstage was true to the vehicle setup. No amp stood out as coloring the sound or detail in any way. The only difference I could really hear was the background recording track noise with respect to volume levels. This could be a total function of the gains as I do not have the equipment to set them with a scope and measure true dB or volume with each setting. Head unit level swept from 16 to 24 during each track, it was noted that the background noise became noticeable with each amp at a different HU level: Zuki 24; Arc KS and Mini 22; Elf 20. All volumes seemed about the same for the given HU level and the noise went away when the HU was throttled back.
All in all, they seemed equivalent with respect to the back ground noise. Note that one of the glaring differences in the component choice on the boards is around the crossover section of the boards. Again, I am running active; so full range was selected. I do not have the equipment to test if there is any frequency leakage from the crossover section due to the component choice."
Living in San Diego County I could not find any dealer that sold J&M products to listen or anyone that I knew that was running their products. So I will not comment on the quality or sound of J&M products.
I know that I am completely happy with the setup on my 07 Road Glide (Elf amp and Hertz HCX 165 speakers). If anyone is interested I would be more then happy to bring my bike within a reasonable distance to listen to or to compare their setup mine.
JMJohn please explain to me what your amp will do better then any other amp on the market or lets just use the Arc mini and the Elf. It appears that both the Elf and your amp produce the same power (70 x 2 @ 4 Ohms and 125 x 2 @ 2 Ohms). I could not find any additional information about your amp (THD,S/N Ratio,Separation,Damping Factor) on your web site. You make a bold statement by stating that your amp will blow the Elf away. I would like some details, please.
I believe price always comes into play when comparing products and there is a point of diminishing returns when paying more for a product. I am no stranger to high end car and home audio. I paid a premium for my Pioneer Elite Pro-141FD 60" plasma and to me and my wife it was worth it. I have used Zapco, Audison, DLS, JL Audio, and a host of other high end car amplifiers over the past twenty years. I have used MB Quart, Dynaudio, Rainbow, Hertz, Hybrid Audio Technologies, and various other speakers for my vehicles. I am no stranger to car or home audio and I always research my purchase first.
Again I want to reiterate that I am not stating anything negative about J&M products.
"Sound review: Running a 9887 active to a front stage: Morel MT23 and 6.5 ID OEM; subwoofer was inactive for the test. Amps were sampled on the tweet stage only.
Benchmark amps tries ABCD: Zuki Eleets; Arc KS 900.6; Arc Mini; Elf Mini
Tracks used: Focal Demo Disc 1
Improvisation- Drum kit solo
Fantastic track for blending of tweet to midbass. This track seems to be recorded from the drummers viewpoint, so the drum kit fills the soundstage. About 1:35 into the song, a group of cymbal work walks across the soundstage giving a great opportunity to judge the impact to each cymbal as well as the resulting resonance.
Naima- Many delicate and detailed sounds with guitar/drums/synthesizer
The intro on this song has many interesting sounds like light windchimes, tambourine, bird chirping, and other unique sounds.
Spanish Harlem- primarily female vocal test track with piano and light guitar line, violin, background percussion
Grandmas Hands- A cappella male vocal
I kept all the gains about equal to level set the sound level expectation; All turned up about 1/10th of a turn.
First to note: All initial volumes were about on par; no real discernible difference.
All highs were detailed and soundstage was true to the vehicle setup. No amp stood out as coloring the sound or detail in any way. The only difference I could really hear was the background recording track noise with respect to volume levels. This could be a total function of the gains as I do not have the equipment to set them with a scope and measure true dB or volume with each setting. Head unit level swept from 16 to 24 during each track, it was noted that the background noise became noticeable with each amp at a different HU level: Zuki 24; Arc KS and Mini 22; Elf 20. All volumes seemed about the same for the given HU level and the noise went away when the HU was throttled back.
All in all, they seemed equivalent with respect to the back ground noise. Note that one of the glaring differences in the component choice on the boards is around the crossover section of the boards. Again, I am running active; so full range was selected. I do not have the equipment to test if there is any frequency leakage from the crossover section due to the component choice."
Living in San Diego County I could not find any dealer that sold J&M products to listen or anyone that I knew that was running their products. So I will not comment on the quality or sound of J&M products.
I know that I am completely happy with the setup on my 07 Road Glide (Elf amp and Hertz HCX 165 speakers). If anyone is interested I would be more then happy to bring my bike within a reasonable distance to listen to or to compare their setup mine.
JMJohn please explain to me what your amp will do better then any other amp on the market or lets just use the Arc mini and the Elf. It appears that both the Elf and your amp produce the same power (70 x 2 @ 4 Ohms and 125 x 2 @ 2 Ohms). I could not find any additional information about your amp (THD,S/N Ratio,Separation,Damping Factor) on your web site. You make a bold statement by stating that your amp will blow the Elf away. I would like some details, please.
I believe price always comes into play when comparing products and there is a point of diminishing returns when paying more for a product. I am no stranger to high end car and home audio. I paid a premium for my Pioneer Elite Pro-141FD 60" plasma and to me and my wife it was worth it. I have used Zapco, Audison, DLS, JL Audio, and a host of other high end car amplifiers over the past twenty years. I have used MB Quart, Dynaudio, Rainbow, Hertz, Hybrid Audio Technologies, and various other speakers for my vehicles. I am no stranger to car or home audio and I always research my purchase first.
Again I want to reiterate that I am not stating anything negative about J&M products.
Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 5
i just installed arc audios new 6 1/2 speakers and i like them i couldnt see spending $249.00 on j&m 7 1/4 speakers i already had the arc audio system on my bike blew a speaker out and arc upgraded me sounds really good at high speeds. can hear it very clear.
Thread Starter
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Road Warrior
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,916
Likes: 19
From: Sunshine State
For those interested in the ELF amp you may want to contact Jeff at Jokers Audio (706) 529-0083, he matched the $150.00 price on the amp and shipped the next day. Good guy to deal with.
I am sure I'll be happy with this setup (HogTunes pod / Infinity Kappa speakers / Elf amp) after all it really don't matter how much you spend on these setups you're still basically running them on an open space and let's not forget good/bad sound is 100% subjective and individual.
I feel statements like "this or that is the best" or "my product beats anything out there" are a bit overboard and absolutely misleading. Some folks are actually quite content with the stock setups, some are happy with a few tweaks, and some have to spend a fortune searching for the ever eluding "perfect" sounding setup. I am pretty sure Hogtunes, J&M, Hawg, Biketronics and others are all good pieces of audio equipment, bottom line it's your ears and brain that will tell you whats best (for you), so to each it's own.
I am sure I'll be happy with this setup (HogTunes pod / Infinity Kappa speakers / Elf amp) after all it really don't matter how much you spend on these setups you're still basically running them on an open space and let's not forget good/bad sound is 100% subjective and individual.
I feel statements like "this or that is the best" or "my product beats anything out there" are a bit overboard and absolutely misleading. Some folks are actually quite content with the stock setups, some are happy with a few tweaks, and some have to spend a fortune searching for the ever eluding "perfect" sounding setup. I am pretty sure Hogtunes, J&M, Hawg, Biketronics and others are all good pieces of audio equipment, bottom line it's your ears and brain that will tell you whats best (for you), so to each it's own.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,449
Likes: 46
From: Roswell, GA
Well said, Cybermunster. Glad to hear Joker's Audio is still doing the Elf amp for $150.
The auto audio shop that installed a Sony head unit on my police model EG 4+ years ago is an ARC dealer and they gave me a drop dead deal on the Arc 125.2 kit Arc has for HD's (125.2 amp, wiring harness, and speakers) and some installation help that I couldn't pass up. Otherwise, I'd have gone with Joker's Audio Elf or Firecap501's Arc offering.
Take some pictures and post a thread on your installation. For all of the Arc and Elf installations, I don't think I've seen a thread showing the installation.
Good luck with your project.
Carl
The auto audio shop that installed a Sony head unit on my police model EG 4+ years ago is an ARC dealer and they gave me a drop dead deal on the Arc 125.2 kit Arc has for HD's (125.2 amp, wiring harness, and speakers) and some installation help that I couldn't pass up. Otherwise, I'd have gone with Joker's Audio Elf or Firecap501's Arc offering.
Take some pictures and post a thread on your installation. For all of the Arc and Elf installations, I don't think I've seen a thread showing the installation.
Good luck with your project.
Carl
Intermediate
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
with all due respect to everyone on this thread, DR V-Twin is not misleading anyone, the J&M 7.25" speakers are THE best and most efficient speakers for your Harley,,,,,, WITH or WITHOUT an accessory amplifier ,,,, hands down above anything else you have heard ,,,
in addition, the new J&M 250w amp that is being released next week, will blow away the ELF amp, really not even competition ,,,,, those promoting it here are just doing so because of it's price ,,,,
and I have no problem with promoting the ELF for it’s price, just don't compare it to the new J&M amp as far as performance ,,,,,
very sorry for all of this confusion ,,,,,
in addition, the new J&M 250w amp that is being released next week, will blow away the ELF amp, really not even competition ,,,,, those promoting it here are just doing so because of it's price ,,,,
and I have no problem with promoting the ELF for it’s price, just don't compare it to the new J&M amp as far as performance ,,,,,
very sorry for all of this confusion ,,,,,
Hey JMJOHN the only reason you are piping up is because if anyone bad mouths your product you loose money out of your pocket just like your other MISLEADING Cohorts. Your speakers without an amp are not louder that than the HTs which come with an amp. To me it seemed like a marketing ploy, rope you into buying the 7.25s ($220) to save some money and then whoops there not loud enough oh i guess you have to buy our amp for another $349 bringing the total for your pocket almost $569 where the HT setup with tweeter pods was only $400, that is a difference of $175. And yes the HTs wont be as loud as your setup but i don't need my ears to bleed.. Again your in the business make money not necessarily to help. Post the data.
Last edited by UB-Einstein; Apr 4, 2010 at 06:52 AM. Reason: spelling
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Outstanding HDF Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,246
Likes: 19
From: Cypress, TX
JM, Elf, Arc mini, and several others are basically the same amp. Do your homework. Don't be fooled into "plug and play", loudest around, etc... an amp and speakers are not hard to install. There are several manufactures that have setups for replacing your head unit if needed. Read the ratings on the speakers and the amp, listen to some in person if you can. Most people will talk about how great their purchase is because it is theirs, myself included. Beware of agressive marketing. I bought from Firecap after a lot of research and when we talked there was no pressure. He just gave me information to help me make my decision.
Intermediate
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
From: SE Georgia
Stereo sound
You get sound a lot of ways but if your looking for true music and clear sound, a quality amp, larger speakers (that can handle some power) and quality head unit is the way to go.
Far to many options out there to begin mentioning
SUBDOC1
2009 Street Glide Dark Blue Pearl
Detachable tour pack with Spoiler light
Saddle bag spoiler lights
Alpine 9883 I pod HU (Ipod in R saddle bag)
Hawgwired Conversion kit (Awesome)
ARC 125.2 Mini Amp (Clean sound)
HERTZ 165 HCX 6.5 Speakers (Only way to go)
Hogtunes Tweeter Pod (Nice add on and sounds good too)
Biketronics older RG slash protector with single sided sticky rubber tape around outer edge.
Chromed out
Rush Pipes
Multiple seat variations
Far to many options out there to begin mentioning
SUBDOC1
2009 Street Glide Dark Blue Pearl
Detachable tour pack with Spoiler light
Saddle bag spoiler lights
Alpine 9883 I pod HU (Ipod in R saddle bag)
Hawgwired Conversion kit (Awesome)
ARC 125.2 Mini Amp (Clean sound)
HERTZ 165 HCX 6.5 Speakers (Only way to go)
Hogtunes Tweeter Pod (Nice add on and sounds good too)
Biketronics older RG slash protector with single sided sticky rubber tape around outer edge.
Chromed out
Rush Pipes
Multiple seat variations