Water injection?
#21
10-01-2010, 03:57 PM
All the fuel goes into the engine, atomized, raw, evaporated, whatever... it is going into the engine...it is caught in a stream of air, no place else for it to go.
#22
10-01-2010, 06:03 PM
Cruiser
Ya if you just google water methanol you'll get a lot of hits. Hits on places trying to sell you a kit. However playing with the query I got several forums and information. It appears it works well in supercharged and turbo charged applications. Most do not run it because of intercoolers you install and forget. You don't have to add anything type of fluid. Might be a weight advantage with the injection but it is inconveinent. It also only injects when the engine is under load or wide open throttle so most the time you are not getting anything injected. Wikipedia stated that if the solution was injected all the time it would drown out the engine. In a naturally aspirated engine such as your harley the benefit is very limited. Additionally I read you DO need a tune when the injection is active .
I think I would save my money and buy an oil cooler if you are worried about temp and a cam for more power. We know they work well. But up to you. One question was the seminar a sales pitch disguised as an informational seminar or just information with no one selling anything or recommending anything?
I think I would save my money and buy an oil cooler if you are worried about temp and a cam for more power. We know they work well. But up to you. One question was the seminar a sales pitch disguised as an informational seminar or just information with no one selling anything or recommending anything?
#23
10-01-2010, 07:03 PM
The more fuel and air mixture that gets into the cylinder, the more power you get. You can run a very rich mixture and not increase horsepower.
All the fuel goes into the engine, atomized, raw, evaporated, whatever... it is going into the engine...it is caught in a stream of air, no place else for it to go.
All the fuel goes into the engine, atomized, raw, evaporated, whatever... it is going into the engine...it is caught in a stream of air, no place else for it to go.
Fuel does not have as much liquid volume in vapor form. Therefore, vaporized fuel does not produce as much power as atomized fuel. Why do you think some naturally aspirated race cars have cool cans? It is to cool the fuel before it get into the combustion chamber to maintain more volume of liquid fuel?
Performance doesn't only mean horse-power. It also mean that an engine is running more efficiently.
Last edited by shortride; 10-02-2010 at 05:43 AM.
#24
10-02-2010, 02:30 PM
Fuel does not have as much liquid volume in vapor form. Therefore, vaporized fuel does not produce as much power as atomized fuel. Why do you think some naturally aspirated race cars have cool cans? It is to cool the fuel before it get into the combustion chamber to maintain more volume of liquid fuel?
Performance doesn't only mean horse-power. It also mean that an engine is running more efficiently.
Performance doesn't only mean horse-power. It also mean that an engine is running more efficiently.
#25
10-08-2010, 11:33 AM
In the mid 70's I ran a Camaro with 11 to 1 compression on the street. My issue was detonation, or pinging for others. I used a combo of water and methanol injection system going right down the carb throat and it solved my problem. It also helped to keep the pistons cleaner.
I have been told that some guys on old cars would pour a little trans fluid down the throat of a carb rear slow to burn off the carbon. Never pour water down as it will blow off too big of carbon chunks and get caught in the valves
Modern motorcycle or cars should really not need this.
I have been told that some guys on old cars would pour a little trans fluid down the throat of a carb rear slow to burn off the carbon. Never pour water down as it will blow off too big of carbon chunks and get caught in the valves
Modern motorcycle or cars should really not need this.
#26
12-29-2010, 03:55 PM
I went to a seminar about water injection and water/methanol injection. It has been around for 70 years when the Army Corp of Engineers developed it for the turbo charged Pratt and Whitney R-2800 engine.
The reason that I went was to consider it for my Vette. But I saw a possible use for my 010 Ultra.
Water injection alone was used over the years by Saab and GM in some turbo motors in the early 80's on their turbo cars. It fell out of use with the advent of inter coolers.
Labonte Motorsports offers a system for naturally aspirated down to 50 hp for about $400.
It sprays a very tiny amount of fine spray into the throttle body. The amount is controlled by a micro processor that reads the info from the fuel injector.
There is a power boost with the injection but it was the side benefits that got me thinking about using it on the Ultra.
First it lowers the head temperatures dramatically. It cleans out the carbon on the valves, head and piston. It allows the use of low octane fuel and prevents detonation.
The most power boost comes from using a 50/50 mixture of water and methanol.
The reason that you can use low octane gas is the water mist during the engine combustion cycle acts like an octane enhancer and will take 91 octane to 116 octane.
The 250 psi pump is about the size of a soda can. The processor is about the size of a pack of cigarettes as is the regulator. The reservoir is about a qt. and a half. I looked at a set up in a new Camaro at the display and the components mounted on a small board. I realized that the entire set up could be mounted in the back of the tour pack and the tiny line run to the throttle body with ease. It didn't even look like an hours work.
The methanol is easy to get. Just get -20 blue windshield washer fluid. It is almost a 50/50 mix. Get 2 little jugs of Heet and add to the fluid and you have your 50/50 mix.
The systems are $395 for an 50 to 100 hp naturally aspirated fuel injected motor. The car systems read off the mass air filter system. For a motorcycle engine it reads off an injector.
Most of the injection occurs when adding throttle. So I don't know how effective it would be at cooling the motor while cruising. But add throttle and it most definitely will.
So the benefits are engine clean of carbon. Use lower octane gas. More power. Cooler head temps.
Has anyone heard of this or tried it or knows someone that did?
I'm considering being a Ginny pig. But I'm not sure.
The hook of cooler and more power is pulling at me.
The reason that I went was to consider it for my Vette. But I saw a possible use for my 010 Ultra.
Water injection alone was used over the years by Saab and GM in some turbo motors in the early 80's on their turbo cars. It fell out of use with the advent of inter coolers.
Labonte Motorsports offers a system for naturally aspirated down to 50 hp for about $400.
It sprays a very tiny amount of fine spray into the throttle body. The amount is controlled by a micro processor that reads the info from the fuel injector.
There is a power boost with the injection but it was the side benefits that got me thinking about using it on the Ultra.
First it lowers the head temperatures dramatically. It cleans out the carbon on the valves, head and piston. It allows the use of low octane fuel and prevents detonation.
The most power boost comes from using a 50/50 mixture of water and methanol.
The reason that you can use low octane gas is the water mist during the engine combustion cycle acts like an octane enhancer and will take 91 octane to 116 octane.
The 250 psi pump is about the size of a soda can. The processor is about the size of a pack of cigarettes as is the regulator. The reservoir is about a qt. and a half. I looked at a set up in a new Camaro at the display and the components mounted on a small board. I realized that the entire set up could be mounted in the back of the tour pack and the tiny line run to the throttle body with ease. It didn't even look like an hours work.
The methanol is easy to get. Just get -20 blue windshield washer fluid. It is almost a 50/50 mix. Get 2 little jugs of Heet and add to the fluid and you have your 50/50 mix.
The systems are $395 for an 50 to 100 hp naturally aspirated fuel injected motor. The car systems read off the mass air filter system. For a motorcycle engine it reads off an injector.
Most of the injection occurs when adding throttle. So I don't know how effective it would be at cooling the motor while cruising. But add throttle and it most definitely will.
So the benefits are engine clean of carbon. Use lower octane gas. More power. Cooler head temps.
Has anyone heard of this or tried it or knows someone that did?
I'm considering being a Ginny pig. But I'm not sure.
The hook of cooler and more power is pulling at me.
I will see where you are with these threads and see what we can come up with. I do believe it will work and work well. Problems will be setting up the pump and making it look "clean" is the challenge. Nozzel size and pressure is something the guy's at Snow's will be valuable. They may even have a smaller pump, smaller than a pepsi can.
Got to go! will check this later. PM me if you can. we can talk.
Got to run.
JB
#27
12-29-2010, 09:10 PM
Ultimate HDF Member
#28
12-29-2010, 10:24 PM
#29
12-29-2010, 10:39 PM
#30
12-29-2010, 11:08 PM
Road Captain
You might all laugh at me but...
Ran homemade water injection by drilling a hole in the air filter cover of a mid70s 2.3liter that pinged like heck on hot days. Put a wiper spray nozzle in the hole and shot wiper fluid when climbing hills. Worked great.
I have to agree that it only gives benefits if you've pushed performance to the point where predetonation is a real problem. I didn't get better mileage or power that wasn't explained by spark advance. I may have "thought" I was getting more power simply because I could push it far harder. Mostly it just stopped pinging as long as I sprayed. Cost me about a buck back then for a roll of duct tape that held the nozzle on.
Ran homemade water injection by drilling a hole in the air filter cover of a mid70s 2.3liter that pinged like heck on hot days. Put a wiper spray nozzle in the hole and shot wiper fluid when climbing hills. Worked great.
I have to agree that it only gives benefits if you've pushed performance to the point where predetonation is a real problem. I didn't get better mileage or power that wasn't explained by spark advance. I may have "thought" I was getting more power simply because I could push it far harder. Mostly it just stopped pinging as long as I sprayed. Cost me about a buck back then for a roll of duct tape that held the nozzle on.