PC-V or HD ECM Download?

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Jan 1, 2011 | 09:06 PM

#21

10350

Cruiser

Joined: Dec 2010

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From: Southeast MI

For the options you are considering I would definitely use the PCV from Fuelmoto. I used one on my last bike and it worked great. I ride with others that tried alternatives, but ultimately went with the PCV. I took a chance on the Vance and Hines Fuelpak this time as I was using V&H headers, mufflers, and intake. It worked great, but if I was buying other brands of parts I would have used the PCV again.

Jan 2, 2011 | 12:16 AM

#22

fuelmoto

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From: Little Chute, WI

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtclassic

This is what a stage 1 Harley down load looks like. If you run it with what harley says to run it with ie se a/c and slip ons it runs very good. Or at least mine does.

The AFR table posted is from a SE Super Tuner calibration which is very different than a Stage 1 download. Also note if this table is used on an O2 sensor equipped bike it will not allow for closed loop operation

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Jan 2, 2011 | 05:39 AM

#23

mtclassic

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fuelmoto

This is from the SEPST part #41000008 which is the street legal stage 1 download.

Jan 2, 2011 | 07:03 AM

#24

Notgrownup

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From: Snow Hill, NC

fuelmoto for sure.

Jan 2, 2011 | 08:39 AM

#25

VTGlideRider

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Joined: Sep 2010

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From: Port St. Lucie FL

This thread and the links to others that folks have posted have been very interesting and educational. I thank everyone for their responses and input.

What I seem to be hearing is:

A tuner such as a SERT and dyno would be the ideal way to go. This would get the bike tuned exactly. Unfortunately this is also the most expensive route and I don't think I would get the benefit of the signficantly increased cost over the 2 options I am considering, since its unlikely that I would make additional mods.
The next most desirable option is the PCV from FuelMoto. Since FuelMoto would be giving me a map based on a bike similar to mine and my mods, it would get me about 90-95% of the way there as far as tuning. An added advantage would be that should I change my mind and do something like cams or header pipes in the future, FuelMoto can create a new map based on the new configuration for no additional cost.
The HD stage 1 download sounds like the least desirable option. It does seem to have worked for some of the folks who responded, however. The thing that makes me hesitant about going this route is that in both the posts here and other reading I've done, it seems that the Moco and the dealer must make the download EPA compliant. From what I understand, this means that the re-map could only richen the fuel mixture slightly if at all, and the bike would not run significantly cooler. It would, however, increase the rev limiter to 6200 rpm.

If the responses about the PCV from fuelmoto being in the $300 range are in the ballpark, then this option would run me about $150-$170 more than the stage 1 download. For the added benefit this seems like a reasonable expense. The last piece of the puzzle will be the response to my e-mail from Jamie which I'm sure will come during the week once he's back to work from the holiday break. As long as his answers come back as I think they will, I think that is the route I will go.

If I've missed anything in my analysis please feel free to chime in...im still learning!

Jan 2, 2011 | 08:58 AM

#26

bigdumbnoitall00

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pcv has another advantage that hasnt been mentioned, its ability to be switched to run 2 different maps, for 2 up touring this has been great for me, lean map for highway cruising and rich map for heat when in trafic or any slow going when loaded with the wife and all her gear.

Jan 2, 2011 | 10:34 AM

#27

VTGlideRider

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From: Port St. Lucie FL

Thought of Another Issue

OK, something else I thought of and this might be a problem. If I go with the PCV what happens at inspection time? If I'm reading correctly the PCV requires that the O2 sensors be disconnected, which will throw an error code. Here in Vermont they dont do emissions testing but on cars they look for the check engine light. Not sure if they read codes on bikes. However, I'm planning on relocating to Texas at some point and the counties I am looking at do require emissions inspection. If I exceed EPA tolerances on going lean will that cause me a problem at inspection time?

Nothing is ever easy!

Jan 2, 2011 | 12:47 PM

#28

iclick

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From: Baton Rouge, LA

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogaloodude

For someone who isn't going to be changing out cams or exhaust on their bikes periodically, it's hard to beat a SERT and a dyno tune. No generic map will run as well as a specific dyno tune of your particular bike.

I respectfully disagree for several reasons. First, like bikes with identical hardware installed are not meaningfully different. If they were each bike would have to be dyno-tuned to meet EPA regulations, which are very strict, but they all leave the factory with a standard ECM calibration. Second, we must not assume that a dyno-tune performed by a local dealer or indy will be as good as one from an established outfit like Fuel Moto. Just because a dealer can perform dyno-tunes is no guarantee the tech will be competent or willing to do a thorough job. Third, regarding one hardware tuner preferable to another, human tuners don't all agree on which is the best. At my dealer the dyno techs prefer PC's, and I think anyone who insists on a dyno-tune should pick the hardware tuner preferred by the person doing the work. A fourth consideration is that the on-board sensors (MAP, etc.) are very good at regulating things for environmental changes like humidity, altitude, air temperature, barometric pressure, etc.

Quote:

The stage I download, according to a friend who is a HD tech, does nothing except raise the rev limit to 6200. We've been led to believe that it adjusts the air/fuel ratio, but apparantly, that isn't so. The closed loop fuel injection system used today does that when you change exhaust and air cleaner. It will still run as lean as it did before the download, in order to meet EPA regulations.

This is true for most bikes from '07 and up. There may be some minor changes in ignition-advance settings with some applications, but for the most part the $150 Stage 1 serves two purposes: Increase the rev limiter and give the dealer a fat profit for a five-minute job.

Last edited by iclick; Jan 2, 2011 at 01:16 PM.

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Jan 2, 2011 | 12:55 PM

#29

iclick

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Joined: Sep 2005

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From: Baton Rouge, LA

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTGlideRider

OK, something else I thought of and this might be a problem. If I go with the PCV what happens at inspection time?

If this is a problem just disconnect the PCV, or install a zeroed map, and re-connect the O2 sensors when you have the bike inspected. This should take no more than 10 min. on each end of the process.

Quote:

If I'm reading correctly the PCV requires that the O2 sensors be disconnected, which will throw an error code. Here in Vermont they dont do emissions testing but on cars they look for the check engine light. Not sure if they read codes on bikes.

On older bikes like my '07 an O2-sensor eliminator is used. In four years using both a PCIII and PCV on this bike I've never experienced a trouble code, except once for a faulty turn-signal bulb. On newer bikes the eliminator is not used and codes will not be generated for these applications either.

Jan 2, 2011 | 01:34 PM

#30

iclick

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Joined: Sep 2005

Posts: 11,615

Likes: 50

From: Baton Rouge, LA

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTGlideRider

What I seem to be hearing is:

A tuner such as a SERT and dyno would be the ideal way to go. This would get the bike tuned exactly.

It's tuned "exactly" for the conditions encountered inside the dealership at that particular point in time, and if the human tuner is capable and willing to do it accurately. Step outside the next day when the humidity and temperature are different and the on-board sensors make changes, just as they would for an accurate canned map. Assuming all this, a PCV will accomplish this as well as any of the flash-based tuners (SERT, TTS, etc.). There seems to be a suggestion in this thread that having SERT is a prerequisite for getting an accurate dyno-tune, which is not true. SERT, SEST, TTS, PCV, and T'Max are all good tuners with different feature sets--and in deciding which one to buy it is up to the rider to determine which are most important to him. A good dyno-tune can be accomplished on any of them given a competent tech.

Quote:

Unfortunately this is also the most expensive route and I don't think I would get the benefit of the signficantly increased cost over the 2 options I am considering, since its unlikely that I would make additional mods.

If you do make changes the likelihood is high that FM will have a map for that configuration too.

Quote:

The next most desirable option is the PCV from FuelMoto. Since FuelMoto would be giving me a map based on a bike similar to mine and my mods, it would get me about 90-95% of the way there as far as tuning.

Mike posted similar numbers earlier, but don't know from what basis they originated. Based on my experience it would be a higher number, as I've checked AFR's using Auto-Tune on several FM maps, two for my '07 (stock and upgraded cams), and trims were very close when the default FM target AFR's were used. That shows that the original AFR tables created on an '07 RK in WI were very accurate when used in my '07 SG in LA.

Quote:

An added advantage would be that should I change my mind and do something like cams or header pipes in the future, FuelMoto can create a new map based on the new configuration for no additional cost.

They don't have maps for every conceivable combo, but they have hundreds of maps in their library and cover all the common configurations and then some.

Last edited by iclick; Jan 2, 2011 at 01:37 PM.

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