The feeling you have going downhill is pretty universal, I remember "Rocket" Ron Haslam, a Honda GP rider from the 1980's saying at a race school that many racers do this and will tend to brake earlier than they need to going downhill - it's a place where good racers can pick up time.

As for dealing with it - I think you just apply all the good sense you've been using already and add in any of the strong advice offered here that is new to you. I know I feel in these sort of turns that the front feels more loaded and steeper, weight transfer feels much more critical and the feeling that it's going to wash out comes up sooner. Panic braking is accompanied by an increased risk factor in these turns. Also the way we use power through the corner - especially on the exit - is interesting because speed is gained more quickly. Add in rain/gravel/lines etc and it's a place not to treat casually.

 

All good info Mark, but sometimes the only clues, are wrong. There is one road, in upper NH that has a section much like the OP describes: up a steep hill (above tree line and no power lines) - with a sign near the top that says "DIP". Well, the surprising thing is just past the crest of the hill, there is a sharpish right turn, not a dip. Well, maybe there is a dip, but it is very slight and of no concern when you suddenly realize the road turns and you aren't set up for it.

Just sayin, that sometimes clues are mis-read or flat out lie to you.

 

from Freddie Spencer
http://hrca.honda.com/Articles/Artic...ticle_0420.xml


By Freddie Spencer

There's always been quite a debate over the proper way to steer your motorcycle, but at the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding school, I teach the exact techniques I used while contesting the 250cc and 500cc Grand Prix World Championships on my way to three world titles.

The year I won both the 250cc and 500cc championships, I had to find ways to conserve my energy and strength when running two 50-minute GPs back-to-back, and in doing so discovered that there were multiple ways to affect how the motorcycle steered and transitioned. It was during that time that I began to exploit the same techniques that I now introduce on the first day of every school: the four ways to steer your motorcycle using countersteering, peg weighting, outside knee pressure against the fuel tank and brake/throttle application. These techniques work no matter what kind of riding you enjoy.

What we teach our students is that these are not four independent methods to pick and choose from; each method should be used in conjunction with the other. For now, let's take a brief look at each component:

Countersteering

Countersteering is the act of pushing on the inside bar (or pulling on the outside) in order to make the motorcycle initiate the corner. Push left, lean left, push right, lean right. The motorcycle's front tire actually turns in the opposite direction of the corner momentarily before the bike leans in and arches in the direction of the corner. However, a rider that relies solely on countersteering will be at a disadvantage when compared to a rider that uses the four ways we teach.

If a rider relies entirely on the movement of the handlebar/clip-ons to turn the bike, he or she must use muscle at a place where you need maximum feel for what the bike is doing. Let's use a tight left/right s-turn as an example. In order for the motorcycle to transition through the corner using only countersteering, the rider must use a firm grip, forcing the bars and then relaxing. This not only becomes physically tiring when done repeatedly, but also works to upset the chassis if done abruptly. We teach our students to get away from muscling the handlebar.

Peg Weighting

Think of a motorcycle as a big gyroscope, and at speed that gyro wants to continue moving in a straight line. You've got gears turning, pistons, wheels and brakes...multiple moving parts that make turning the motorcycle all the more difficult. However, the footpegs are set low and act as an inside axle of the gyro, where a rider can maneuver his or her weight and use considerable leverage and pressure to affect how that gyro reacts. But peg weighting is not just about placing the weight there, but when the rider places the weight there--a discussion we have when you sign up for the school.

Outside Knee Against the Fuel Tank

Using the outside knee against the fuel tank leads to a tightening of the torso muscles, which in turn allows the rider to take the weight off the arms. Why is this important? Because anything that helps alleviate a tense grip at the handlebar will help the rider receive better feedback from the chassis and tires. And relaxed arms and hands are the instruments of smooth throttle, brake and clutch control.

Brake/Throttle

The final part of the steering equation we teach at the Freddie Spencer High Performance Riding School involves application of the brake and throttle. We teach that the most important aspect of each corner is the entrance, dubbed Zone 1 in the school. Brake and throttle usage in Zone 1 are essential to successfully navigating the rest of the corner. Both brake and throttle input have a tremendous affect on how the motorcycle steers when used in conjunction with the other methods I've described above.

Braking for a corner loads the front tire, compresses the front suspension and tightens rake and trail, allowing the motorcycle to steer more quickly. Trail braking well past the turn-in point allows the rider to continue slowing the bike and help it steer, adjusting the line if need be while maintaining the load factor on the front tire. The throttle is used in much the same way; rolling it off and squeezing the brake will cause the motorcycle's line to tighten, cracking the throttle off idle after the brakes are released arrests the bike's lean angle and helps hold the desired line.

One of the reasons we use such a diverse methodology when teaching students how to most efficiently steer their motorcycles is because a rider will use different techniques depending on the situation. On the racetrack, a rider can hang off the bike and use body and peg weighting more than on the street. During street riding, more importance may be placed on countersteering and brake/throttle application. But the important thing is to understand how all of these inputs can be best utilized to help maneuver your motorcycle.

At our schools, we provide a detailed explanation of each of these methods and how they work in unison. Combined with supervised drills and lots of track time, students can see how these techniques improve their riding in a practical environment, on the racetrack and in everyday street riding. The many miles I've covered street riding and the years I spent battling it out with riders like Kenny Roberts and Anton Mang have culminated in a series of techniques that I believe in--techniques that can be learned and applied to everyday riding to make you a better, safer rider.

 

OP, good refinement to the question about downhill curves. You don't want to be free wheeling downhill or need to be braking to keep your speed down. That eliminates one of your controls in the curve--the throttle. What I usually do is downshift on a downhill and take advantage of engine braking so that I am still rolling on the throttle coming out of the curve, even downhill. Said another way, the technique is the same--you want to have the proper speed entering the curve--but accomplish the reduced speed with the transmission rather than the brakes.

The MSF courses around here teach "Slow-Look-Press-Roll." Slow to the appropriate speed approaching the curve. Look through the curve. Press the bar in the direction you want to go (countersteer). Roll on the throttle.

 

This past Sunday I went out for a ride. About 70 miles from home on an unfamiliar country road. Come into a really sharp blind curve with no signs, so I just ease off throttle and lean a little harder. Then I see the pit that runs all the way across the road. I hit hard enough that it knocked some paint off the rear of the frame where it hit the asphalt. Scared the crap out of me, but the bike just took it in stride. Just remain calm, and be smooth. You will be ok.

 

First have you ever heard of counter steering? I never lean a bike in a turn I counter steer all my motorcycles on the flat, highway mountain curves and especially twisties. Look up on the internet and they will explain how to counter steer. I never lean my bike simply explained a 150 plus rider cannot throw a 700 plus motorcycle fast enough to get out of trouble but a 150 minus can move a motorcycle faster by counter steering.

 

I am familiar with counter steering. I am confused when you say you never lean your bike. Whether counter steering by pushing on the inside grip, or pulling on the outside grip, putting pressure on the inside floorboard/peg, or pressure on the tank with your outside knee, all of these techniques are initiating a lean which is what ultimately is causing the bike to turn.

 

I asked that question one day and got this answer. "Pick a line and stay with it".

 

Once again I don't see anything particularly wrong with your approach. You controlled your speed when you couldn't see the road ahead, giving yourself time to assess the situation ahead of you. You were then aware of the tightening radius & down hill condition of the turn & able to adjust your riding to fit the situation. Your original post may have indicated that you were a little aggressive with the brakes, but I can't tell that from here.

A friend & I used to ride the mountains along the Blue Ridge. We would pick an extremely tight set of twisties & ride them down & back up. The first set we would do our best to avoid using the brakes. We'd then run a second set using the brakes & compare the times. Using brakes was always faster, but the runs without brakes made us better riders. Confidence comes from practice, practice, practice.

 

I find those to be the trickiest turns to make. The bike is picking up speed just when you want to slough off speed. You have to keep your head and force that countersteer and lean to make the big bike turn. I've found myself going wider than I would want on a couple turns like this.