Oil Sumping Question
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,763
Likes: 2,597
From: san antonio
Originally Posted by HDV-GLIDE
Does the bike have to be upright to check the sump amount or can it be done on the side stand?
Originally Posted by HDV-GLIDE
When cruising at say 70mph, rpm's are at about 2500, twist the throttle and the rpm's are not moving on the tach and the bikes feels like it's attached to an anchor..
As another responder pointed out, the 255 cams pretty much run out of legs at 4000 rpms and have nothing left by 4500. Try downshifting and run her up to 90 before shifting to 6th. IMHO, sixth gear in stock configuration, even on the '09 models with the 68T wheel pulley is useless. Here's a thought, slap a 30T trans pulley on and give that a try; stock belt will work but most of the adjustment will be used up. If that doesn't get where you want, replace the 68T wheel pulley with a 70T; the 30T trans pulley and 70T wheel pulley will also work with the stock belt. One of those final gearing changes will solve your problem.
JMHO but the MoCo had to do something in the last few years to encourage folks to trade up for new models, hence the six speed tranny; "upgraded" frame; 96" motor that would grow to 103" with a BB kit; six gallon tank; wider rear tire; etc. IMHO, a sixth gear for a motor that spends most of it's time between 2500-3500 rpms is unnecessary but that's a subject for another thread.
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Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 45
From: Indian Land, SC
Yes, you can check on the side stand.
Depending on the situation, I would just as likely downshift to 4th as I would roll on throttle with my five speed at 2500rpms; that's 60mph on my old '02 FLHT and border line lugging in my book. If I was climbing a hill, about to overtake another vehicle or several vehicles, I would definitely down shift. Consider that the motor is performance built 107", I would most likely downshift to 4th if say 95" and running a set of bolt in cams only.
As another responder pointed out, the 255 cams pretty much run out of legs at 4000 rpms and have nothing left by 4500. Try downshifting and run her up to 90 before shifting to 6th. IMHO, sixth gear in stock configuration, even on the '09 models with the 68T wheel pulley is useless. Here's a thought, slap a 30T trans pulley on and give that a try; stock belt will work but most of the adjustment will be used up. If that doesn't get where you want, replace the 68T wheel pulley with a 70T; the 30T trans pulley and 70T wheel pulley will also work with the stock belt. One of those final gearing changes will solve your problem.
JMHO but the MoCo had to do something in the last few years to encourage folks to trade up for new models, hence the six speed tranny; "upgraded" frame; 96" motor that would grow to 103" with a BB kit; six gallon tank; wider rear tire; etc. IMHO, a sixth gear for a motor that spends most of it's time between 2500-3500 rpms is unnecessary but that's a subject for another thread.
Depending on the situation, I would just as likely downshift to 4th as I would roll on throttle with my five speed at 2500rpms; that's 60mph on my old '02 FLHT and border line lugging in my book. If I was climbing a hill, about to overtake another vehicle or several vehicles, I would definitely down shift. Consider that the motor is performance built 107", I would most likely downshift to 4th if say 95" and running a set of bolt in cams only.
As another responder pointed out, the 255 cams pretty much run out of legs at 4000 rpms and have nothing left by 4500. Try downshifting and run her up to 90 before shifting to 6th. IMHO, sixth gear in stock configuration, even on the '09 models with the 68T wheel pulley is useless. Here's a thought, slap a 30T trans pulley on and give that a try; stock belt will work but most of the adjustment will be used up. If that doesn't get where you want, replace the 68T wheel pulley with a 70T; the 30T trans pulley and 70T wheel pulley will also work with the stock belt. One of those final gearing changes will solve your problem.
JMHO but the MoCo had to do something in the last few years to encourage folks to trade up for new models, hence the six speed tranny; "upgraded" frame; 96" motor that would grow to 103" with a BB kit; six gallon tank; wider rear tire; etc. IMHO, a sixth gear for a motor that spends most of it's time between 2500-3500 rpms is unnecessary but that's a subject for another thread.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,763
Likes: 2,597
From: san antonio
Change the pulleys or ride it like it was meant to be ridden. I don't know what mileage you expect from that build but you should be happy with anything approaching 40mpg. A better tune may help the mileage and even the 6th gear performance but different cams, more compression and/or changing pulleys will solve your problem.
Change the pulleys or ride it like it was meant to be ridden. I don't know what mileage you expect from that build but you should be happy with anything approaching 40mpg. A better tune may help the mileage and even the 6th gear performance but different cams, more compression and/or changing pulleys will solve your problem.
On a different note, the way I check for sumping is first:
1. While in the shop or garage, loosen the pipe plug in the bottom of the crankcase. I this takes a 1/4" allen wrench. Careful, many strip this for some reason. When you are sure it will come out, snug it back up.
2. Put a small cookie sheet, measuring cup, shop towels, 1 gallon baggie, and 1/4" allen wrench in your saddle bags.
3. Get out on the road and get the oil warmed up. 20 to 30 minutes of riding.
4. Find a stretch with a good wide paved shoulder, run the bike to 4000 rpm, gear doesn't matter. Hold it there for several seconds, hit the kill button and pull in the clutch, pull over on the shoulder.
5. Put the cookie sheet under the bike, loosen the plug, get ready to catch oil in measuring cup, remove plug. Set cup on cookie sheet where it is catching oil and level the bike up. When the oil starts dripping instead of running you're done. Put the plug back in and snug it up.
6. See how much oil is in the cup. 6-8 oz. would be max. The last time I did this I got 2 oz.
7. When you get home torque the plug to 120-144 in/lbs.
If you are sumping it means the oil pump isn't scavenging. If there is very little oil in the sump, it is doing it's job. If you let the bike set very long before you check it, the oil from the top end can skew your results. I would bet you're not sumping.
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Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,741
Likes: 45
From: Indian Land, SC
I don't believe I am either...
After using my HF mechanics stethoscope this morning, I narrowed my ugly sounds to the cam chest....It defiantly is coming from the cam chain.....
Ok, could it be the zippers dual piston cam chain tensioners, the cam bearings, etc....Could the Baisley Oil Spring be putting to much pressure on the cam chain tensioners causing the whirling noise??? Who knows.....
Didn't want to but if I'm going in there, the SE255 cams are coming out...
Now do I want the S & S Easy Start 551's or the TW-222 cams......They probably both will do the job for me and price wise, the S & S's are a lot cheaper going through Direct Cycle Parts.
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
After using my HF mechanics stethoscope this morning, I narrowed my ugly sounds to the cam chest....It defiantly is coming from the cam chain.....
Ok, could it be the zippers dual piston cam chain tensioners, the cam bearings, etc....Could the Baisley Oil Spring be putting to much pressure on the cam chain tensioners causing the whirling noise??? Who knows.....
Didn't want to but if I'm going in there, the SE255 cams are coming out...
Now do I want the S & S Easy Start 551's or the TW-222 cams......They probably both will do the job for me and price wise, the S & S's are a lot cheaper going through Direct Cycle Parts.
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
I don't believe I am either...
After using my HF mechanics stethoscope this morning, I narrowed my ugly sounds to the cam chest....It defiantly is coming from the cam chain.....
Ok, could it be the zippers dual piston cam chain tensioners, the cam bearings, etc....Could the Baisley Oil Spring be putting to much pressure on the cam chain tensioners causing the whirling noise??? Who knows.....
Didn't want to but if I'm going in there, the SE255 cams are coming out...
Now do I want the S & S Easy Start 551's or the TW-222 cams......They probably both will do the job for me and price wise, the S & S's are a lot cheaper going through Direct Cycle Parts.
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
After using my HF mechanics stethoscope this morning, I narrowed my ugly sounds to the cam chest....It defiantly is coming from the cam chain.....
Ok, could it be the zippers dual piston cam chain tensioners, the cam bearings, etc....Could the Baisley Oil Spring be putting to much pressure on the cam chain tensioners causing the whirling noise??? Who knows.....
Didn't want to but if I'm going in there, the SE255 cams are coming out...
Now do I want the S & S Easy Start 551's or the TW-222 cams......They probably both will do the job for me and price wise, the S & S's are a lot cheaper going through Direct Cycle Parts.
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,763
Likes: 2,597
From: san antonio
BTW, never said the OP couldn't get better mileage, just said he should be happy with anything north of 42; 40 was a typo.
The OP has already been advised on how to check for sumping but I don't think his motor is sumping. The 255s fall flat just above 4000; the OP rolls on in 6th at 2500rpms; with the 255s and OEM gearing, it ain't going anywhere. A cam change will help but IMHO, a gearing change is what he needs.
Last edited by djl; Aug 3, 2013 at 09:11 PM.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,763
Likes: 2,597
From: san antonio
Now do I want the S & S Easy Start 551's or the TW-222 cams......They probably both will do the job for me and price wise, the S & S's are a lot cheaper going through Direct Cycle Parts.
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
Still have to get my roll on in 6th gear issue sorted out but no use in doing that until I get new cams in there. Then I can work with Rev Performance to hopefully get my tuning issues resolved.......
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BTW, never said the OP couldn't get better mileage, just said he should be happy with anything north of 42; 40 was a typo.
I bet you see more 42 than 48.
The 255s fall flat just above 4000; the OP rolls on in 6th at 2500rpms; with the
255s and OEM gearing, it ain't going anywhere.
255s and OEM gearing, it ain't going anywhere.
The OP has already been advised on how to check for sumping but I don't think
his motor is sumping.
his motor is sumping.
Having actually used the EMS I have experienced what he is going through. My bike would make a 100 ft/lb of torque before 3000 rpm and then flat line with the EMS. Since it is a 107 it still would accelerate in 6th gear. Before I spent the money on a cam change I would change tuners because I already spent the money on a cam change and the EMS never performed for me. Andrew told me he wouldn't chase a number, the number I was chasing was 12.5:1 afr instead of the 10:1 afr I was getting. I don't think 255's are the optimum cam, but there are many using them with good results.
HDF Community Team
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,763
Likes: 2,597
From: san antonio
Originally Posted by $tonecold
I really don't think your "You can check for sumping and eliminate that as a cause by running the motor up to near operating temps, removing (carefully) the crankcase drain plug on the right side of the bottom of the crank case. If more than 4-6 ounces of oil drains out, could be sumping." was quite as detailed as my step by step procedure.
Originally Posted by $tonecold
Having actually used the EMS I have experienced what he is going through. My bike would make a 100 ft/lb of torque before 3000 rpm and then flat line with the EMS. Since it is a 107 it still would accelerate in 6th gear.
Originally Posted by $tonecold
Before I spent the money on a cam change I would change tuners because I already spent the money on a cam change and the EMS never performed for me. I don't think 255's are the optimum cam, but there are many using them with good results.
A mileage discussion is useless and a waste of time. Never indicated the 35mpg was acceptable but, based on my experience, 40mpg, or thereabouts is not unreasonable subject to the motor configuration and how the bike is ridden. I am happy with 38mpg from my all bore 107" carbed '02 FLHT.
Anyway, keep the shiny side up!