EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 949
Likes: 1
From: Pacific Northwest
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
I can shed a little first hand experience on your question. I have a Rinehart exhaust and Zippers A/C (more air than SE)and at my Dealers advice, they flashed my bike with stage I, theresult...the bike surged at constant throttle, stumbled off idle,and the bike would die at a light unless I constantly blipped the throttle and I pulled the plugs and they were bone white...umm...now my bike has a SE race fueler that's been tweaked to eliminate all of the above problems. IMO the stage I download is not enough and a fuel pak, race fueler, corbra etc. is sufficient for pipes and A/C change, plus you can easily adjust them with a screw driver to extend the injector pulse at different rpms, kinda like tuning a carb. But if you are planning more changes than that (cams, bigger bore,head work etc.) you will need a more sophisticated fuel management set-up, SERT, Thundermax w/ AT, etc. I have a Thundermax that I bought from Eastern performance for $685.00 that I will install after cam(HQ?), 103" or 107"? and headwork(headquarters or RR?) but that's down the road, what I have is adequate for now.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,722
Likes: 7
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
ORIGINAL: madden23
I can shed a little first hand experience on your question. I have a Rinehart exhaust and Zippers A/C (more air than SE)and at my Dealers advice, they flashed my bike with stage I, theresult...the bike surged at constant throttle, stumbled off idle,and the bike would die at a light unless I constantly blipped the throttle and I pulled the plugs and they were bone white...umm...now my bike has a SE race fueler that's been tweaked to eliminate all of the above problems. IMO the stage I download is not enough and a fuel pak, race fueler, corbra etc. is sufficient for pipes and A/C change, plus you can easily adjust them with a screw driver to extend the injector pulse at different rpms, kinda like tuning a carb. But if you are planning more changes than that (cams, bigger bore,head work etc.) you will need a more sophisticated fuel management set-up, SERT, Thundermax w/ AT, etc. I have a Thundermax that I bought from Eastern performance for $685.00 that I will install after cam(HQ?), 103" or 107"? and headwork(headquarters or RR?) but that's down the road, what I have is adequate for now.
I can shed a little first hand experience on your question. I have a Rinehart exhaust and Zippers A/C (more air than SE)and at my Dealers advice, they flashed my bike with stage I, theresult...the bike surged at constant throttle, stumbled off idle,and the bike would die at a light unless I constantly blipped the throttle and I pulled the plugs and they were bone white...umm...now my bike has a SE race fueler that's been tweaked to eliminate all of the above problems. IMO the stage I download is not enough and a fuel pak, race fueler, corbra etc. is sufficient for pipes and A/C change, plus you can easily adjust them with a screw driver to extend the injector pulse at different rpms, kinda like tuning a carb. But if you are planning more changes than that (cams, bigger bore,head work etc.) you will need a more sophisticated fuel management set-up, SERT, Thundermax w/ AT, etc. I have a Thundermax that I bought from Eastern performance for $685.00 that I will install after cam(HQ?), 103" or 107"? and headwork(headquarters or RR?) but that's down the road, what I have is adequate for now.
I, personally, have no reason and see no need to upgrade my engine internally. That's just my personal preference. But, if I were, I would not have bought the fuelpak. For my purposes, fuelpak with a/c and slipons was a good fit.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
run my FXDC with pre 07 screaming eagle torque mufflers for nice sound and k+n filter in stock airbox for reduced maintenance, left closed loop efi system alone as no need to alter air fuel ratio as closed loop will automatically compensate for any changes in airflow or backpressure or for air temp and atmospheric pressure come to that, that is the purpose of a closed loop fuel injection system! the delphi efi system fitted to 07 on models will keep A/F ratio stoichometric at idle and constant throttle and richer under load and acceleration it also has an anti-knock function to retard ign and avoid detonation, the 07 on engines do run hot but that is because of stoichometric ratio but this is needed to comply with emission regs.It is surely only in the event of real performance tuning i.e.high comp pistons,performance cams,radical exhausts etc that there is a need for fuel/ignition map alteration, fuel octane rating and ignition advance are the culprits of detonation, not A/F ratio.IMHO.
my bike is int model as i live in limey land and i have run bike like this for 6000mls, sounds good, goes at least as good as standard, maybe better (hard to say as always feel faster when louder), fuel consumption is great,dont have to buy any more std air filters!, did a plug check looks fine.
my advice is type stoichometric/detonation/delphi efi into your search engine,read the results and form your own conclusions as to what you need to do.
my bike is int model as i live in limey land and i have run bike like this for 6000mls, sounds good, goes at least as good as standard, maybe better (hard to say as always feel faster when louder), fuel consumption is great,dont have to buy any more std air filters!, did a plug check looks fine.
my advice is type stoichometric/detonation/delphi efi into your search engine,read the results and form your own conclusions as to what you need to do.
Road Warrior
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,900
Likes: 1
From: Backwoods of NH
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Ahhhhh ..... so all this SERT/PCIII/Fuel pack hoopla is just a big marketing scam for stage 1 bikes? I knew it! Darn conspiracy, I tell ya! [sm=boink3.gif]
And I guess I just imagined the backfiring, decel popping, and ragged uneven running before dyno tuning my stage1 intake and pipes w/SERT? Must be those darn 60's hallucinations again, huh? [sm=grinangel.gif]
Hmmmm.... not so sure about the ability of the stock efi to self-correct on Harleys on this side of the pond. At least not enough!!!
[sm=chattypair.gif]
And I guess I just imagined the backfiring, decel popping, and ragged uneven running before dyno tuning my stage1 intake and pipes w/SERT? Must be those darn 60's hallucinations again, huh? [sm=grinangel.gif]
Hmmmm.... not so sure about the ability of the stock efi to self-correct on Harleys on this side of the pond. At least not enough!!!
[sm=chattypair.gif]
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 4,722
Likes: 7
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
The last 2 posts are indicative of what has driven me crazy for the past several months. No offense to either poster at all. Actually, the parts mgr. at my dealer is the one that has been feeding me the same info as dodger. He'll say "aw, the O2 sensors in the 07's should take care of the aftermarket pipes and/or a/c". Then, I'll turn around and someone else tells me that adding the pipes and/or a/c is leaning my bike out too much as it is already lean to begin with and I better deal with it sooner than later. I believe this discussion could go on from both sides forever.
In my mind, I'm erring on the side of "safer than sorry" by adding, at least, the fuelpak to my stage 1 setup. Maybe it's overkill but that's better than the alternative.
In my mind, I'm erring on the side of "safer than sorry" by adding, at least, the fuelpak to my stage 1 setup. Maybe it's overkill but that's better than the alternative.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Dont have any backfiring, no uneven running-its smooth all the way even down to virtually near tickover, slight decel popping but only as fuel injectors cut back in at low RPM and this happened with standard A/C and pipes you just couldn't hear it so easy.
I heard all these contradictions as well so i looked into stoichometric ratio's, engine detonation and efi systems and you know my conclusions! and instead of the stealership and dynoman spending my money I spent it myself partying.
And yea i think it is a bit of a con as far as stage 1 goes, but hey everyone has to make a living and if you are happy the way your cycle runs and feel its money well spent then happydays!
ride free + keep it right way up.
I heard all these contradictions as well so i looked into stoichometric ratio's, engine detonation and efi systems and you know my conclusions! and instead of the stealership and dynoman spending my money I spent it myself partying.
And yea i think it is a bit of a con as far as stage 1 goes, but hey everyone has to make a living and if you are happy the way your cycle runs and feel its money well spent then happydays!
ride free + keep it right way up.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 4,541
Likes: 1
From: Nuevo México, Los Estados Unidos de América
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
The Closed loop is not a factor on decel... it's off at o% throttle... I think the canned maps (stcok, stage I, stage II, whatever) only use it between 27%-85% throttle up to 4.5k rpm.
And it is set lean still... That will in no way that's gonna help with popping on decel, or WOT (100%).
And it is set lean still... That will in no way that's gonna help with popping on decel, or WOT (100%).
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Poppin don't bother me but pre-ignition, detonation and a damaged engine would! as in previous post on this topic i believe fuel octane rating i.e. too low, and ignition advance are the culprits and not the fitment of a free breathing exhaust or A/C and that the inbuilt anti-knock sensing ability of the delphi EFI in conjunction with the closed loop systemis able to cope with filter and exhaust mods alone on a mechanically STD motor, if that motor is modified from STD well thats a whole new ball game! IMHO
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Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Thanks for the replies. I'm still confused, but I have made a decision.
Shopping list:
- Rinehart slipons.
- SE AC.
- SERT.
- Exhaust actuator eliminator.
- Intake solenoid eliminator.
(see http://www.bigjoechoppers.com.au/eliminators.htmlfor the eliminators)
When the bike is broken in, I'll bolt on the parts andfind a dynoman than can do the tuning.
Maybe I'll put on the slipons (or have the dealer do it)when I pick it up new at the dealer. If I have understood it right, the slipons alone won't demand any remapping, but I will havesome sound improvementsfrom day one.
Shopping list:
- Rinehart slipons.
- SE AC.
- SERT.
- Exhaust actuator eliminator.
- Intake solenoid eliminator.
(see http://www.bigjoechoppers.com.au/eliminators.htmlfor the eliminators)
When the bike is broken in, I'll bolt on the parts andfind a dynoman than can do the tuning.
Maybe I'll put on the slipons (or have the dealer do it)when I pick it up new at the dealer. If I have understood it right, the slipons alone won't demand any remapping, but I will havesome sound improvementsfrom day one.
Banned
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,144
Likes: 1
From:
RE: EFI tuning. Totally confused, need advice
Sofus... Thats a good decision you made... The SERT has more adjustments than any other Tuner out there by 10 times.. IncludeingRev Limiter, and heat Management.. You need to find a Tuner you can trust...Start there First ...And the SERT canned maps are nothing like the Fuel Pack or other plug and play tunners Maps...