question for the cops here?
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
RE: question for the cops here?
ORIGINAL: xxxflhrci
I'm a LEO and of the opinion that you do not have to take it off. IMO, when you are wearing it, it is no different than you boots. You do not have to take them off to "be searched", which is basically what the officer is doing when he is wanting to see your helmet. Sure, he could detain you and go get a search warrant or possibly arrest you on something like maybe "obstruction of justice" and search the helmet "incident to arrest"......
There are many opinions in LEO circles on this topic. I don't know if one is right or wrong. I had a friend call me a couple of years ago to bring him a helmet. He got stopped and let the officer see his helmet. The helmet had a novelty sticker inside. The officer charged him, then seized his helmet as evidence, and left my buddy on the side of the road. Several of us LEO's discussed this matter as to whether it was right or wrong. Some said yes, " it was evidence". Some said, no it was personal property, not contraband since it isn't illegal to own and should not have been seized. I see both sides, but submit a similar situation.........Imagine an officer stopping your for slick tires on your car...Do you think he would seize them as evidence?
I'm a LEO and of the opinion that you do not have to take it off. IMO, when you are wearing it, it is no different than you boots. You do not have to take them off to "be searched", which is basically what the officer is doing when he is wanting to see your helmet. Sure, he could detain you and go get a search warrant or possibly arrest you on something like maybe "obstruction of justice" and search the helmet "incident to arrest"......
There are many opinions in LEO circles on this topic. I don't know if one is right or wrong. I had a friend call me a couple of years ago to bring him a helmet. He got stopped and let the officer see his helmet. The helmet had a novelty sticker inside. The officer charged him, then seized his helmet as evidence, and left my buddy on the side of the road. Several of us LEO's discussed this matter as to whether it was right or wrong. Some said yes, " it was evidence". Some said, no it was personal property, not contraband since it isn't illegal to own and should not have been seized. I see both sides, but submit a similar situation.........Imagine an officer stopping your for slick tires on your car...Do you think he would seize them as evidence?
For example if I'm working a B&E (ie burglary/home invasion) and my best evidence are footwear impressions, and later I come across a potential suspect who's boots have a tread that matches my footwear impressions, then I'm seizing those boots right then. No search warrant needed.
Same goesif I'm investigating a stabbing or a serious assault. Then a block or so away from the scene I find a man with a large amount of blood on his pants that is not his own. I interview him and what not, but decide not to arrest him thatnight. Perhaps I'd like to have the prosecutor's approval before hand so I'll go complaint & warrant instead. Butstill I'mnot going to let him take his pants home with him. I'm seizing that property as evidence. We'll get him something else to wear in the time being.
Now there are other ways to collect evidence like MK249 pointed out belowwith the tiresby simply taking photos.
However I've seized items as large as cars, when they are for a example, evidence of a hit & run case.
So if in your particular state wearing is novelty helmet, while operating a motorcycle on a public road, is a crime (it's only a CI here in MI) then it is not wrong for the investigating officer to seize that property as evidence. While it might be considered petty to some, it is the only 100% way for the officer to make his case in court at a later date.
ORIGINAL: MK249
That's not even close to the same thing. Most departments aren't going to jack the car up and take the tires as evidence. Most would photograph the tires or tow the vehicle.
And of course the helmet would be considered evidence in your example. That's the article in question so how could it not be considered evidence? Dope is also personal property until it gets seized as evidence. Shoes, helmets, panties, etc are obviously one's personal property but can also be seized as evidence to ensure a proper investigation and and help in the disposition of the case.
Here's the perfect solution to what any police officer requests of someone.......do what the f*#k he says to do.
If he wants you to remove the helmet for inspection just do it and take your lumps if you're wearing some junk on your melon.
That's not even close to the same thing. Most departments aren't going to jack the car up and take the tires as evidence. Most would photograph the tires or tow the vehicle.
And of course the helmet would be considered evidence in your example. That's the article in question so how could it not be considered evidence? Dope is also personal property until it gets seized as evidence. Shoes, helmets, panties, etc are obviously one's personal property but can also be seized as evidence to ensure a proper investigation and and help in the disposition of the case.
Here's the perfect solution to what any police officer requests of someone.......do what the f*#k he says to do.
If he wants you to remove the helmet for inspection just do it and take your lumps if you're wearing some junk on your melon.
Road Master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 901
Likes: 18
From: Virginia
RE: question for the cops here?
No warrant needed. He has reasonable cause to search you without a warrant because you are not visibly complying (plain view clause) with your state's helmet law. Meaning, no DOT sticker. If you had a DOT sticker (fake or real) and he asked to inspect your helmet, you would then be able to deny a warrantless search because the DOT sticker says you are in compliance.
BTW, some real azzhats here. The moment one of you civilians calls me (a Soldier) your subordinate the moment I think twice about considering protecting your sorry ***. I don't work for you, I work for the Constitution and serve this Republic. The LEOs here serve their State and protect the citizenry as a whole. Yes the taxpayers pay our salaries but you also vote the people that employ and deploy us. You vote in the legistlators that create the laws YOU DON'T LIKE. So if you don't like it... CHANGE IT. But you're probably the same jaded clown that says "dar gumit! I'm not guna vote this yer, they's all da same!"
Read your Constitution once, I carry my in my left pocket on my ACUs, so when that officer pulls you over for being a clown on the road or anywhere else and tosses you in the county lockup for 3 days, you'll know what your rights really are.
My LEO experience? I'm an investigator in the Army, and no, not CID.
BTW, some real azzhats here. The moment one of you civilians calls me (a Soldier) your subordinate the moment I think twice about considering protecting your sorry ***. I don't work for you, I work for the Constitution and serve this Republic. The LEOs here serve their State and protect the citizenry as a whole. Yes the taxpayers pay our salaries but you also vote the people that employ and deploy us. You vote in the legistlators that create the laws YOU DON'T LIKE. So if you don't like it... CHANGE IT. But you're probably the same jaded clown that says "dar gumit! I'm not guna vote this yer, they's all da same!"
Read your Constitution once, I carry my in my left pocket on my ACUs, so when that officer pulls you over for being a clown on the road or anywhere else and tosses you in the county lockup for 3 days, you'll know what your rights really are.
My LEO experience? I'm an investigator in the Army, and no, not CID.
Tourer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 386
Likes: 1
From:
RE: question for the cops here?
Being on the job years ago, and now retired, I've seen Good Cops and bad Cops,(Law enforcement Officers) The worst were Pa statey's and Philly Cop. We all have our good days and our bad days. We all have a job to do just to bring home the bacon.
I find if the officer is block head , I just keep my trap shout, and that night send in the ticket and request a hearing . As one Officer said spend three hour out your day in court was a pain in the AXX, So I don't mind I'M RETIRED and to get the points taken off. Why not. Then Trooper Block Head said you should have told me you were retired LEO, I wouldn't have given you the ticket. (Yea right,)
So to get back to the Topic, Do what you want to do , you have a accident , LEO just has todo the paper work , the undertaker has to use a high presser hose to hose you down to clean you up to puton that new suit that nobody will see because it will be a close casket.
Remember ride safe..... these kids on the road today are dialing the cell phones and talking to kid in front of him and not looking for your sorry aXX.. I just though I would add my three cents, ( its post time )
I find if the officer is block head , I just keep my trap shout, and that night send in the ticket and request a hearing . As one Officer said spend three hour out your day in court was a pain in the AXX, So I don't mind I'M RETIRED and to get the points taken off. Why not. Then Trooper Block Head said you should have told me you were retired LEO, I wouldn't have given you the ticket. (Yea right,)
So to get back to the Topic, Do what you want to do , you have a accident , LEO just has todo the paper work , the undertaker has to use a high presser hose to hose you down to clean you up to puton that new suit that nobody will see because it will be a close casket.
Remember ride safe..... these kids on the road today are dialing the cell phones and talking to kid in front of him and not looking for your sorry aXX.. I just though I would add my three cents, ( its post time )
Cruiser
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 176
Likes: 0
From:
RE: question for the cops here?
ORIGINAL: cHiLi_11
Hate me or not, I can live with myself...... but the statement you just made makes you sound completely immature. I am not gonna sit here and debate with you about it either. Save it for the keyboard warriors.
Nick
ORIGINAL: ozfree
I'm always respectful of cops and what they do. But as a cop, don't talk down to me. I'm a human being, not your subordinate! I, the tax payerpay your paycheck...You're a public servant...You work for me! Keep that in mind for all you badge heavy cops out there......that's all.
I'm always respectful of cops and what they do. But as a cop, don't talk down to me. I'm a human being, not your subordinate! I, the tax payerpay your paycheck...You're a public servant...You work for me! Keep that in mind for all you badge heavy cops out there......that's all.
Nick
As immature as it may sound, it's reality. It's the way it is. The taxpayer pays your paycheck.I also know that cops hate to hear that. They like to think more of their jobs than just public servants and I can understand that. Honestly, I can. The **** you guys put up with every day.....it sux.I don't hate you, that would take up too much of my energy to hate someone I don't even know. Honestly, I don't hate anyone (except those trying to kill us)and I don't know where you're digging this up.
All I'm saying is respect goes both ways. You expect it from me, I expect it from you. You won't catch me talking down to any cops but for some reason I don't always get the same treatment. Overall, they're pretty good.
Oh and it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
Extreme HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,033
Likes: 29
RE: question for the cops here?
ORIGINAL: Kawboy40
XXX, you are forgetting aboutthe open view and plain view exceptions to the search warrant rule. If I see personal property that is evidence of a crime I don't need a search warrant to collect and seize that property right there and then.
ORIGINAL: xxxflhrci
I'm a LEO and of the opinion that you do not have to take it off. IMO, when you are wearing it, it is no different than you boots. You do not have to take them off to "be searched", which is basically what the officer is doing when he is wanting to see your helmet. Sure, he could detain you and go get a search warrant or possibly arrest you on something like maybe "obstruction of justice" and search the helmet "incident to arrest"......
There are many opinions in LEO circles on this topic. I don't know if one is right or wrong. I had a friend call me a couple of years ago to bring him a helmet. He got stopped and let the officer see his helmet. The helmet had a novelty sticker inside. The officer charged him, then seized his helmet as evidence, and left my buddy on the side of the road. Several of us LEO's discussed this matter as to whether it was right or wrong. Some said yes, " it was evidence". Some said, no it was personal property, not contraband since it isn't illegal to own and should not have been seized. I see both sides, but submit a similar situation.........Imagine an officer stopping your for slick tires on your car...Do you think he would seize them as evidence?
I'm a LEO and of the opinion that you do not have to take it off. IMO, when you are wearing it, it is no different than you boots. You do not have to take them off to "be searched", which is basically what the officer is doing when he is wanting to see your helmet. Sure, he could detain you and go get a search warrant or possibly arrest you on something like maybe "obstruction of justice" and search the helmet "incident to arrest"......
There are many opinions in LEO circles on this topic. I don't know if one is right or wrong. I had a friend call me a couple of years ago to bring him a helmet. He got stopped and let the officer see his helmet. The helmet had a novelty sticker inside. The officer charged him, then seized his helmet as evidence, and left my buddy on the side of the road. Several of us LEO's discussed this matter as to whether it was right or wrong. Some said yes, " it was evidence". Some said, no it was personal property, not contraband since it isn't illegal to own and should not have been seized. I see both sides, but submit a similar situation.........Imagine an officer stopping your for slick tires on your car...Do you think he would seize them as evidence?
Cruiser
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From:
RE: question for the cops here?
ORIGINAL: ozfree
As immature as it may sound, it's reality. It's the way it is. The taxpayer pays your paycheck.I also know that cops hate to hear that. They like to think more of their jobs than just public servants and I can understand that. Honestly, I can. The **** you guys put up with every day.....it sux.I don't hate you, that would take up too much of my energy to hate someone I don't even know. Honestly, I don't hate anyone (except those trying to kill us)and I don't know where you're digging this up.
All I'm saying is respect goes both ways. You expect it from me, I expect it from you. You won't catch me talking down to any cops but for some reason I don't always get the same treatment. Overall, they're pretty good.
Oh and it's innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
[/quote]
I hear you man, but I am telling you and like you said....... if you could only see the s*it we deal with in LA. The last person that told me something like that I wrote a ticket. He was runing his suck before my partner and I even got to his window. We pulled him over to warn him for speed (60mph in a 45mph). Instead of letting me educate him on the speed law, he wanted to tell me how to do my job and threw in a few of the lines you used. The guy was a complete ***! After the way he was, I would look stupid not giving him a ticket. I dont want him to think it's ok to talk to a cop or anyone like that, and yes I agree.....you have to give respect to get respect. Just remember though, they need to show it to me first. For what ever reason, a radio call was generated because of their poor actions.
Nick
Advanced
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 80
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From:
RE: question for the cops here?
I almost never stop bikes, unless is't a good bean.
In my town we have a serious target rich enviroment, can't waste time on NOI's for non-DOT stuff. Way too many cagers with no licencia, seguro, registro and warrants.
"Do you have any further questions of me?...no..then drive safely!"
In my town we have a serious target rich enviroment, can't waste time on NOI's for non-DOT stuff. Way too many cagers with no licencia, seguro, registro and warrants.
"Do you have any further questions of me?...no..then drive safely!"
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Road Master
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 990
Likes: 0
From: Trinity Al
RE: question for the cops here?
I was given a ticket for a nonDOT helmet last summer by a Alabama State Trooper after I called the law on a 18 wheeler for running me into construction barrels. After the Trooper said a few words to the driver He Came to Me and asked to see my helmet He asked if it was DOT and I said "No sir it is not" with no additudeand he gave me a ticket. I was the one how got ran off the road. I hope I never have the chance to help him in any way