Do I need to re-map?
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: where the military takes me
Well if you knew anything about fuel injection you would know that the o2 sensors will adjust for the mufflers. The only reason why the pipes blued is because the bike runs hot(lean) from the factory. Dont think im some dumb redneck from the swamp that dosn't know his butt from the hole in the ground. I know what im doing, and I know fuel injection. People get fuel injection and carbs mixed up all the time. Its ok, its a common mistake.
Big Kahuna HDF Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 23,881
Likes: 34
From: USA
True to an extent. But a Stage1 AC and tuner will release the beast in the bike. Mine was a huge difference as I rode it 1000 miles stock. Once tuned with a SERT it was like a different bike.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
Well if you knew anything about fuel injection you would know that the o2 sensors will adjust for the mufflers. The only reason why the pipes blued is because the bike runs hot(lean) from the factory. Dont think im some dumb redneck from the swamp that dosn't know his butt from the hole in the ground. I know what im doing, and I know fuel injection. People get fuel injection and carbs mixed up all the time. Its ok, its a common mistake.
Well if you knew anything about fuel injection you would know......
We ain't talkin' about Chevy's here. The HD ECM's only compensate a minimal (small) amount and that is not near enough! (Note the blue pipes). Had it adjusted enough, the pipes wouldn't blue and the dealerships wouldn't be selling ECM flash's.
Dont think im some dumb redneck from the swamp that dosn't know his butt from the hole in the ground. I know what im doing, and I know fuel injection.
HD ECM's only compensate enough to allow for different climates and altitudes, using the stock OEM factory components. Change pipes and stuff and you are on your own. These ECM's were not designed to allow for aftermarket parts changes.
Cars do a little more in that aspect.
Sure you can "get away" with pipe changes, but you WILL be running lean, even leaner than the factory lean condition that you started with.
If you are okay with that, good for you!
But don't come here all snotty sounding like you know it all, then state stuff that is NOT at all accurate.
It is a very small range that the ECM and sensors will do. It is not enough.
Accept that. They don't call them "narrow band" sensors for no reason.
.
Last edited by Faast Ed; Sep 11, 2010 at 07:12 PM.
Cruiser
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
From: where the military takes me
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/c...band-o2-sensor
http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/N...2Function.html
All the narrow band sensors do is create a slower signal or a more unrefined signal if you would say to the computer. A wide band sends quicker more refined signal to the computer.
http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/N...2Function.html
All the narrow band sensors do is create a slower signal or a more unrefined signal if you would say to the computer. A wide band sends quicker more refined signal to the computer.
Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 7,580
Likes: 7
From: The Internet (& Dyer, Indiana)
http://tuneyourharley.com/biketech/c...band-o2-sensor
http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/N...2Function.html
All the narrow band sensors do is create a slower signal or a more unrefined signal if you would say to the computer. A wide band sends quicker more refined signal to the computer.
http://www.waterfuelconverters.com/N...2Function.html
All the narrow band sensors do is create a slower signal or a more unrefined signal if you would say to the computer. A wide band sends quicker more refined signal to the computer.
I think when you do some more research, you will find that the Harley ECM does not compensate for near as much as you think it does.
Not gonna sit here and go back and forth with ya, just trying to enlighten you. Do your research. I'm just trying to help.
Road Master
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 882
Likes: 2
From: gone 4 good
HD's stage one, I felt was a rip off. First off, in Canada they charge $295 for the download. I thought my bike performed worse with the d/l, so I took it back to the dealer and complained. I lost throttle reponse and got lots of popping and backfires. I ended up with a SEST and spent the $$ and had it dyno'd. The bike performs better than ever. I have no regrets spending the money to finish the job.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,914
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, Illinois
[quote=Faast Ed;7272858]I think when you do some more research, you will find that the Harley ECM does not compensate for near as much as you think it does.
This makes sense and has me worried that my SG needs to be remapped. When I bought the bike, it already had an air cleaner kit and cored mufflers, but the seller stated that the H-D dealership said no re-mapping was necessary. Narrow band O2 sensors if I understand correctly will not make fuel trim adjustments under certain circumstances (i.e. closed loop mode is N/A in certain circumstances like the O2's being cold, WOT, etc.), so although the stock ECM as programmed will make fuel trim adjustments in closed loop, is there some form of keep-alive memory that will extend the fuel trim adjustments learned because they are constantly being applied while operating in closed loop to the base map when the ECM is operating in open loop? Please help Faast Ed!
Just like you say, I would think you WILL be running lean when you uncork either end and allow more air through the motor at any given rpm than stock. The base map in the stock Harley ECM will make small fuel trim adjustments based on +/- 450mV readings from the stock O2's, but this is limited at best (can't program for kpa/rpm on the lookup where AFR is desired <14 (e.g. 12.5 AFR) and no VE...?).
Enter Power Commander which eliminates the O2's I believe which makes me worried too, because now I have no feedback mechanism under normal closed loop conditions. Seems like Power Commander doesn't want any intercepts to base map to make their adjustments to, but what about the other sensor adjustments such as ACT, CKP, etc. I guess PC III anticipates these +/- adjustments made to the stock duty cycle from the stock ECM? It all seems so confusing.
This makes sense and has me worried that my SG needs to be remapped. When I bought the bike, it already had an air cleaner kit and cored mufflers, but the seller stated that the H-D dealership said no re-mapping was necessary. Narrow band O2 sensors if I understand correctly will not make fuel trim adjustments under certain circumstances (i.e. closed loop mode is N/A in certain circumstances like the O2's being cold, WOT, etc.), so although the stock ECM as programmed will make fuel trim adjustments in closed loop, is there some form of keep-alive memory that will extend the fuel trim adjustments learned because they are constantly being applied while operating in closed loop to the base map when the ECM is operating in open loop? Please help Faast Ed!
Just like you say, I would think you WILL be running lean when you uncork either end and allow more air through the motor at any given rpm than stock. The base map in the stock Harley ECM will make small fuel trim adjustments based on +/- 450mV readings from the stock O2's, but this is limited at best (can't program for kpa/rpm on the lookup where AFR is desired <14 (e.g. 12.5 AFR) and no VE...?).
Enter Power Commander which eliminates the O2's I believe which makes me worried too, because now I have no feedback mechanism under normal closed loop conditions. Seems like Power Commander doesn't want any intercepts to base map to make their adjustments to, but what about the other sensor adjustments such as ACT, CKP, etc. I guess PC III anticipates these +/- adjustments made to the stock duty cycle from the stock ECM? It all seems so confusing.
Last edited by harleysuperglide1; Dec 12, 2010 at 10:41 PM.
HD Forum Stories
The Best of Harley-Davidson for Lifelong Riders
10 Worst Harley-Davidson Motorcycles Ever
Pouria Savadkouei
Killer Custom's Jail Break Is The Breakout That Refused to Blend In
Verdad Gallardo
Crazy Bunderbike Build Looks Amazing, But Is It Impossible to Ride?
Verdad Gallardo
Harley-Davidson Reveals Super Cool Cafe Racer Concept
Verdad Gallardo
Engraved Rebellion: Inside Bundnerbike's Glam Rock II
Verdad Gallardo
10 Motorcycles You Should Never Buy
Joe Kucinski
10 Things Harley-Davidson Needs to Fix in 2026
Verdad Gallardo
Southpaw Super Glide: A Left-Hand-Drive 1979 Harley FXE Built to Fit the Rider
Verdad Gallardo
The Best and Worst Harley-Davidson Moves of 2025
Verdad Gallardo
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 4,440
Likes: 148
From: Northwest
People... people.... think of your "air intake - engine - exhaust" as a long tube... same diameter the whole length.
If you change the diameter at only one end... do you flow more air?... no.
If you change the diameter of the tube at the other end, do you flow more air?... maybe, if that end is 'pointed' into the air stream...otherwise... no.
When you change the "diameter" of the tube on the ends AND in the middle, then you are moving more air.
Narrow band sensors are used in closed loop mode after you've warmed up, and are not in WOT conditions. Most auto-tune systems utilize wide band sensors to monitor a wider band of engine operation.
So, if you like jacking the throttle... ( who doesn't) your running on mostly 'tables' anyway, and not the sensors. When you're just cruisin down the road, the system will go into closed loop and adjust for variations....but I do agree that the Stage.1 download from HD is crap.
If you change the diameter at only one end... do you flow more air?... no.
If you change the diameter of the tube at the other end, do you flow more air?... maybe, if that end is 'pointed' into the air stream...otherwise... no.
When you change the "diameter" of the tube on the ends AND in the middle, then you are moving more air.
Narrow band sensors are used in closed loop mode after you've warmed up, and are not in WOT conditions. Most auto-tune systems utilize wide band sensors to monitor a wider band of engine operation.
So, if you like jacking the throttle... ( who doesn't) your running on mostly 'tables' anyway, and not the sensors. When you're just cruisin down the road, the system will go into closed loop and adjust for variations....but I do agree that the Stage.1 download from HD is crap.
Elite HDF Member
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,914
Likes: 0
From: Chicago, Illinois
So, if you like jacking the throttle... ( who doesn't) your running on mostly 'tables' anyway, and not the sensors. When you're just cruisin down the road, the system will go into closed loop and adjust for variations....but I do agree that the Stage.1 download from HD is crap.