DIY stage 1 questions
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Tourer
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
From: Egg Harbor Township, N.J.
Wow, my head is spinning. I've seen a few posts where people weren't happy with their Cobra's but some of them couldnt even tell you the model of the Cobra tuner they were using so I have to discard them from the brain bank. Honestly, on these forums anyway, I've read nothing but good about the Cobra PowerPro CVT and it retails @ 599.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Sure friend, whatever you say. That item you linked to is not a full tuner, it's that new 'dongle' that let's the dealership flash your ECM, and maybe ( you would know) let's you mess with the cells in the map to do some tuning, provided you have the accesories and a laptop. And yes I have a very good idea as to what the 'Dongle' ie, the Dobeck GEN 3 is doing, it's using a simple chip and program to fatten up the injector pulse width, with some attention to load based on injector demand ( it only plugs into the injectors and the negative terminal of the battery). Curious as to what you think it is doing?
As to the benefit of running open loop all the time, no more 'hunting', ie, the ECM is not trying to make the bike achieve that perfect Stoic combustion scenario at cruising RPMs anymore, so no more what feels like lean surging when just putting around. By the way, I've read and talked to few guys who have their own shops and do tuning, and they have mentioned sometimes having to take part of the map out of closed loop to get the bike to run strong at certain low RPMs;albeit, they typically try to keep cruising RPMs in closed loop to preserve the MPGs- of course this takes some fine tweaking of cells in the map, costs time/money.
And finally, per your comments regarding fuel quality and closed loop operation, while you are right about variations in fuel quality, what about the blow-by scenario,eh? You can run the exact same fuel day in and day out, but the blow-by will differ, depending on many factors, some days just hot air entering your intake tract, some days a big booger of oil, some days a lot of acidic water- you don't think this affects the combustion process? Route the blow-by out of the intake and collect it in a catch can, you will be amazed/horrified at what is being shoved into the combustion chambers. Just like closed loop operation, this was done not to make your machine run better or last longer, but to satisfy EPA. I know by seat of the pants that my bike runs much better consistently with the blow-by re-routed, as I have switched back and forth from stock breather set-up to re-route twice now. Not very technical, so probably should not be mentioned on the internet, at least not on this forum, apparently.
(PS, the attachment is from a friend who tunes, worksheet from tuning session on a 2009 Superglide. All the sections marked off with pen are closed loop, the other cells are open loop- don't see anything like a 15 to 1 AFR under open loop operation there, do you?)
As to the benefit of running open loop all the time, no more 'hunting', ie, the ECM is not trying to make the bike achieve that perfect Stoic combustion scenario at cruising RPMs anymore, so no more what feels like lean surging when just putting around. By the way, I've read and talked to few guys who have their own shops and do tuning, and they have mentioned sometimes having to take part of the map out of closed loop to get the bike to run strong at certain low RPMs;albeit, they typically try to keep cruising RPMs in closed loop to preserve the MPGs- of course this takes some fine tweaking of cells in the map, costs time/money.
And finally, per your comments regarding fuel quality and closed loop operation, while you are right about variations in fuel quality, what about the blow-by scenario,eh? You can run the exact same fuel day in and day out, but the blow-by will differ, depending on many factors, some days just hot air entering your intake tract, some days a big booger of oil, some days a lot of acidic water- you don't think this affects the combustion process? Route the blow-by out of the intake and collect it in a catch can, you will be amazed/horrified at what is being shoved into the combustion chambers. Just like closed loop operation, this was done not to make your machine run better or last longer, but to satisfy EPA. I know by seat of the pants that my bike runs much better consistently with the blow-by re-routed, as I have switched back and forth from stock breather set-up to re-route twice now. Not very technical, so probably should not be mentioned on the internet, at least not on this forum, apparently.
(PS, the attachment is from a friend who tunes, worksheet from tuning session on a 2009 Superglide. All the sections marked off with pen are closed loop, the other cells are open loop- don't see anything like a 15 to 1 AFR under open loop operation there, do you?)
*Walks away in disgust at the level of some people's ignorance*
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 508
Likes: 2
From: Idaho Panhandle
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 508
Likes: 2
From: Idaho Panhandle
Why not get the Dynojet Powervision instead? And while I think it's generally all good ( with the exception of Vance&Hines fuel pak, WTF, you have to add XiEDS to make the thing work right in closed loop?), it should be noted that the new TTS locks the ECM, and the new SEPRT is not a full tuner: cannot adjust the EGR tables, no speedometer recalc feature, no ability to adjust for different cams ( no cam tune tables), so stuck with Screaming Eagle 255 cam, apparently.
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
*sigh*
I'm starting to think you are posting this stuff just to wind me up. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt just once more...
That's exactly what it is. A device that you plug into the ECU of your bike to tune it. Either the dealer can do that or you can yourself if you purchase the optional software and leads. I am not a lone voice expressing some mad opinion; that is exactly what everyone else thinks it is - except, apparently, you.
I'm really curious to know what you think tuning is precisely. This "mess with the cells" is technically known as tuning. How else do you think you alter the tune of the bike, magic pixies wave a wand?
I think you will find that Dobeck might say it does a bit more. But do you think that is tuning? Its not, its a quick fudge.
That "fix" has zero to do with getting rid of closed loop. Its just that the stock bikes have closed loop set a bit lean and needs a tweak to fix, either with a real tuner or else by using some Xieds. Or, in your case, throwing a load of fuel at it.
At last, something you got right. Apart from the cost part. Here's how to do it for free when you have a tuner: http://www.harley-davidson-hangout.c...ighs-efis.html
I have no idea what this has got to do with tuning but anyway...Do you somehow think you've invented that? Me and many others have been doing that to Harleys for years.
That is about 50% correct for closed loop. Part of what closed loop does is reduce emissions by burning the fuel at close to stoic (on stock bikes). However, as well as that, it also allows you to have a nice rich mix when you pour it on in open loop and then, when you are cruising and don't need it rich, it will lean the mixture to save fuel. Disable closed loop and you lose that, as well as the other things I mentioned before.
Of course, you don't have to live with closed loop running at stoic. If you have a tuner (or some Xieds) you change this. Mine is set to have an AFR of 14.2:1 in closed loop with gasoline. So I still save fuel when cruising, though slightly less, and I don't have any surging or other issues and I didn't have to give up the advantages of O2 sensors and closed loop to achieve this.
That's because you don't understand anything about tuners, fuel, stoic or much else (even though you think you do). Let me explain that again in simpler words...
Lets say you would like a rich tune to make best power at a particular spot on the map. You adjust the tune to 0.89 lamba (AFR of 13.1:1 if running straight gasoline) at that spot and anywhere else you need the extra power. You do this with a tank of straight gasoline.
Then you start to find that only E10 is available, as is often the case in the US now. If you haven't broken your bike by disabling the O2 sensors or closed loop then, over a little time, the bike will adjust at this spot on the map to 0.89 lamba again (AFR of 12.6:1 for E10). However, if you have broken your bike, then it will continue to maintain an AFR of 13.1:1, which is about 4% or so leaner than you wanted.
That's where the lean value of 15+:1 that I mentioned before comes from. Without closed loop, if you had tuned for gasoline and used E10 instead then the bike will run about 4% leaner. Which is exactly what is happening with your bike: the tune will be all over the place depending on what fuel you use.
Got it yet?
I'm starting to think you are posting this stuff just to wind me up. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt just once more...
That's exactly what it is. A device that you plug into the ECU of your bike to tune it. Either the dealer can do that or you can yourself if you purchase the optional software and leads. I am not a lone voice expressing some mad opinion; that is exactly what everyone else thinks it is - except, apparently, you.
it's that new 'dongle' that let's the dealership flash your ECM, and maybe ( you would know) let's you mess with the cells in the map to do some tuning, provided you have the accessories and a laptop.
And yes I have a very good idea as to what the 'Dongle' ie, the Dobeck GEN 3 is doing, it's using a simple chip and program to fatten up the injector pulse width, with some attention to load based on injector demand ( it only plugs into the injectors and the negative terminal of the battery).
As to the benefit of running open loop all the time, no more 'hunting', ie, the ECM is not trying to make the bike achieve that perfect Stoic combustion scenario at cruising RPMs anymore, so no more what feels like lean surging when just putting around.
By the way, I've read and talked to few guys who have their own shops and do tuning, and they have mentioned sometimes having to take part of the map out of closed loop to get the bike to run strong at certain low RPMs;albeit, they typically try to keep cruising RPMs in closed loop to preserve the MPGs- of course this takes some fine tweaking of cells in the map, costs time/money.
...what about the blow-by scenario,eh? You can run the exact same fuel day in and day out, but the blow-by will differ, depending on many factors, some days just hot air entering your intake tract, some days a big booger of oil, some days a lot of acidic water- you don't think this affects the combustion process? Route the blow-by out of the intake and collect it in a catch can, you will be amazed/horrified at what is being shoved into the combustion chambers.
Just like closed loop operation, this was done not to make your machine run better or last longer, but to satisfy EPA.
Of course, you don't have to live with closed loop running at stoic. If you have a tuner (or some Xieds) you change this. Mine is set to have an AFR of 14.2:1 in closed loop with gasoline. So I still save fuel when cruising, though slightly less, and I don't have any surging or other issues and I didn't have to give up the advantages of O2 sensors and closed loop to achieve this.
(PS, the attachment is from a friend who tunes, worksheet from tuning session on a 2009 Superglide. All the sections marked off with pen are closed loop, the other cells are open loop- don't see anything like a 15 to 1 AFR under open loop operation there, do you?)
Lets say you would like a rich tune to make best power at a particular spot on the map. You adjust the tune to 0.89 lamba (AFR of 13.1:1 if running straight gasoline) at that spot and anywhere else you need the extra power. You do this with a tank of straight gasoline.
Then you start to find that only E10 is available, as is often the case in the US now. If you haven't broken your bike by disabling the O2 sensors or closed loop then, over a little time, the bike will adjust at this spot on the map to 0.89 lamba again (AFR of 12.6:1 for E10). However, if you have broken your bike, then it will continue to maintain an AFR of 13.1:1, which is about 4% or so leaner than you wanted.
That's where the lean value of 15+:1 that I mentioned before comes from. Without closed loop, if you had tuned for gasoline and used E10 instead then the bike will run about 4% leaner. Which is exactly what is happening with your bike: the tune will be all over the place depending on what fuel you use.
Got it yet?
Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Go troll elsewhere, this is a forum for serious discussion.
Road Captain
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 508
Likes: 2
From: Idaho Panhandle
And in regards to your comment about tuning your bike with a laptop and a flash tuner, minus the Dyno time, sure, lot's of folks do it. But without a way to sample the exhaust gasses, you are just guessing at actual AFR and adjusting the VE tables by the seat of your pants. Glad to hear you are smart enough to re-route the Blow-by, although why my mentioning of such makes you think it was some novel idea leaves me wondering about your state of mind. I started reading about that 2 years ago on another forum, just took me a while to get around to it. Say, you didn't invent the idea, did ya?
BTW, are you a moderator on this forum? If not, you should petition one to ban me for my trollism,eh.
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Road Warrior
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1,739
Likes: 10
From: Suffolk, England
Of course you don't have access to any tables, including EGR, so your tune is completely unknown.
If you knew anything at all about the new TTS mastertune, you would know that it locks the ECM.
And in regards to your comment about tuning your bike with a laptop and a flash tuner, minus the Dyno time, sure, lot's of folks do it. But without a way to sample the exhaust gasses, you are just guessing at actual AFR and adjusting the VE tables by the seat of your pants.
You've disabled your O2 sensors and so haven't a clue what the VEs, AFRs or anything are.
no ability to adjust for different cams ( no cam tune tables), so stuck with Screaming Eagle 255 cam, apparently
Look, I get that you have done a bit of reading and picked up a few buzz words. But I really don't think you have a full grasp of the products or the technology. I'm not saying I do either but its a bit more than you. You aren't making yourself look very good here because you are getting so much stuff wrong. I suggest doing a little more research and letting this discussion alone for now. I definitely am now because its sucking up too much time.
Road Warrior
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,368
Likes: 27
From: Australia
Hi,
3illy, I got a 2010 fxdwg a yr ago, first harley, jap bike riders call them farm bikes, they just a engine man, lot of hysteria around about them and shops/dealers love that
Don't read too much into all the hype about stage 1, I put slip ons on, then xieds than AC kit, bike runs well as, done a heap of riding and hasn't missed a beat
Thinking of putting a pro-pipe onto it soon, local dyno guy wasn't interested in doing dyno run on it because I don't have tuner so he cant up sell tune time etc, I just wanted to check AFR, hp and tq
Thanks
Mirrmu
3illy, I got a 2010 fxdwg a yr ago, first harley, jap bike riders call them farm bikes, they just a engine man, lot of hysteria around about them and shops/dealers love that
Don't read too much into all the hype about stage 1, I put slip ons on, then xieds than AC kit, bike runs well as, done a heap of riding and hasn't missed a beat
Thinking of putting a pro-pipe onto it soon, local dyno guy wasn't interested in doing dyno run on it because I don't have tuner so he cant up sell tune time etc, I just wanted to check AFR, hp and tq
Thanks
Mirrmu